JUDY WOODRUFF: To help fill in the picture of where things go form here, Adam Goldman covers the FBI and national security for The New York Times. Adam Goldman, welcome back to the program. You have been reporting on this. What went into the decision to fire Andrew McCabe?
ADAM GOLDMAN, The New York Times: Well, essentially, what went into the decision was, they looked at an episode where McCabe tried to defend his reputation involving a Wall Street Journal story about the FBI's investigation into the Clinton Foundation. He was accused of trying to thwart that investigation. He, as a deputy director, was authorized to speak with the media, and he made it known that that's not what happened with the Hillary Clinton investigation. And in the course of the I.G. investigation, they asked him about the media disclosure, and they dinged him for his response to those questions, and they found he had a lack of candor under oath, which is a summary dismissal at the FBI. It's a big deal, because FBI agents are taught from day one to be truthful, because their credibility is on the line, certainly if they have to testify in a case.
JUDY WOODRUFF: I.G. of course being a reference to the inspector general at the Justice Department. And it's our understanding that that report has not been made public yet.
ADAM GOLDMAN: No. No. We're still waiting. We thought it was going to be late winter, early spring, but that report by the Department of Justice inspector general is going to be a wide, wide, big report on the actions of the FBI in 2016, including decisions that former FBI Director James B. Comey made regarding the Hillary Clinton investigation, his famous press conference in July 2016 and letters he sent to Congress.
JUDY WOODRUFF: You have you have some understanding of how McCabe has handled this. He put out a very tough statement when the firing was announced. How is he dealing with this and what can we expect from him going forward? As we just heard, it's indicated that he's kept notes about his conversations with the president.
ADAM GOLDMAN: That's true. McCabe, Comey and others have all kept notes and are going to be potential witnesses in that obstruction investigation, if that ever comes to light, regarding Mueller's probe into the president's actions. I think McCabe feels under siege. He joined the bureau in 1996. Many people believe he was an honest FBI agent. Some people didn't like the decisions he made as deputy director, operational decisions, but it's a tough decision.
In any organization like the FBI, the CIA, they have to make the tough calls. Some people didn't like them. But he gave his life to the bureau and to the country. And in these dizzying events, he's now been accused of essentially lying, and it's cost him his pension just hours before he was eligible to retire on Sunday.
JUDY WOODRUFF: You cover the FBI. You talk to people all the time there. Is there any kind of consensus about how this will affect the Mueller investigation?
ADAM GOLDMAN: Well, you know, they have attacked the -- McCabe's credibility has been
attacked. He's another key witness. The White House has attacked the credibility of the former director -- Director Comey. He is a key witness in this. You know, Republicans on the Hill have made text messages public between a couple of FBI -- you know, senior FBI agent and a senior FBI lawyer who worked on the Russia case. Their credibility has now been attacked. So, you know, in the end, these people who played an important part in this FBI investigation into possible Russian collusion are all under attack, and their credibility is going to be on the line. And it's not clear how that will hurt or damage Mueller's investigation.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Adam Goldman with The New York Times, thank you very much.
ADAM GOLDMAN: Thank you.
1.happened with 发生
Did you hear what happened with the other tower?
2.on the line 冒风险
He wouldn't put his career on the line to help a friend.
3.make public 公之于众
The British government threatened to make public its disquiet but then pulled back.
4.put out 放出来
Yesterday afternoon the White House put out a new version of events
5.come to light 曝光
Nothing about this sum has come to light
亚当·戈德曼：嗯，从本质上说，是他们看到，华尔街日报报道了FBI调查克林顿基金会，麦凯布试图保护自己受损的声誉，最终决定将其解雇 。他被指控试图阻挠那项调查 。作为副局长，他被授权接触媒体，他表示这并非希拉里·克林顿调查的进展 。在IG的调查过程中，他们问他关于媒体披露的事，他们说他对这些问题的反应不利，他们发现他本有誓言，却缺乏坦诚，因此FBI将他即时解雇 。这是个大问题，因为FBI的特工从上班第一天起就被教导要诚实，因为如果他们必须在案件中作证的话，他们的信誉就会遭受考验 。
茱蒂·伍德瑞夫：I.G.当然是司法部检察长的一个参考 。据我们了解，该报告尚未公开 。
亚当·戈德曼：是的，是的，我们还在等待 。我们以为此事已经冬去春来，但司法部检察长的报告将会非常宽泛，报告内容涉及2016年FBI的行动，包括前联邦调查局局长詹姆斯·B·科米对希拉里·克林顿的调查决议，还有2016年7月他备受瞩目的记者招待会以及他写给国会的信 。
茱蒂·伍德瑞夫：你对麦凯布如何处理此事有一些理解 。当他被宣布解雇时，他发表了一个非常强硬的声明 。他是如何处理这个问题的，他下一步会做什么？正如我们刚才听到的，这表明他记下了他和总统之间的谈话 。
亚当·戈德曼：是的 。麦凯布，科米以及其他人都不停地做着记录，如果一旦缪勒关于总统行为的调查真相大白，他们都将成为妨碍调查的潜在证人 。我认为麦凯布感到自己身陷重围了 。他于1996年加入FBI 。许多人相信他是一个诚实的联邦调查局特工 。有些人不喜欢他作为副局长所做出的业务决定，但这是一个艰难的决定 。
在任何如FBI，CIA这样的组织，他们必须作出强硬的决定 。有些人不喜欢他们 。但他把自己的生命交给了FBI和这个国家 。在这些纷繁交错的事件中，他现在被指控撒谎，退休金也因此受到影响，而原本星期日他就有资格正式退休了，只差几个小时 。
茱蒂·伍德瑞夫：你报道FBI 。你总和他们的人接触 。关于这将如何影响缪勒调查，你们有任何共识吗？
亚当·戈德曼：嗯，你知道，他们攻击了——麦凯布的声誉遭到攻击 。他是另一个重要证人 。白宫攻击前局长科米的声誉 。他在此事上是另一个重要证人 。你知道，国会山上的共和党人已经将一些FBI，你知道，将高级FBI特工与一名负责俄罗斯事件的高级FBI律师之间的信件公之于众 。他们的信誉现在受到了攻击 。所以，你知道，最后，这些在FBI通俄事件调查中起了重要作用的人，都受到了攻击，他们的信誉也会受到影响 。目前还不清楚这些会对缪勒的调查造成怎样的影响和伤害 。