Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Business Review. I'm Alison Beard.

欢迎来到哈佛商业评论的HBR IdeaCastBB1okeo,ex@gN0.Qf1。我是艾莉森·比尔德B16j(XIWBK=f3wgq。

We've been talking about humble leadership for years now, but it still sometimes feels like the most arrogant and ambitious people are the ones getting ahead.

多年来，我们一直在谈论谦逊的领导，但有时仍然感觉最傲慢、最雄心勃勃的人才是出人头地的人vPOK4x~QHZnW~[d~|。

I won't name names, but a few tech world billionaires, populous politicians, rappers, and reality stars come to mind.

我不会指名道姓，但我想到了一些科技界的亿万富翁、政客、说唱歌手和真人秀明星PU|rbGnqJTH)q_。

I'm sure you have bosses and colleagues who also fit the bill.

我相信你们的老板和同事也有人符合这个条件=CJtjg],DNYu!Fq。

Of course there are counter examples too, smart and confident leaders, who also show humility and use that combination to rise to the top: Mary Barra of GM, Jacinda Ardern of New Zealand, lots of people at my work and maybe yours.

当然，也有反面的例子，聪明而自信的领导者也表现出谦逊，并利用这两者的结合登上高层：通用汽车的玛丽·巴拉、新西兰的总理杰辛达·阿德恩，以及我的很多同事，也许还有你的同事a1bCbS~Chz18。

But how exactly do they manage it?

但他们到底是如何做到这一点的呢？

How do you stay humble while also proving your worth?

你如何在保持谦逊的同时证明自己的价值呢?

How do you advance without showing too much ambition?

你怎么才能在不表现出太大野心的情况下取得进步呢？

My guest today has been sett ing these issues for years and has some advice on how to get the balance right.

我今天的嘉宾多年来一直在讨论这些问题，并就如何取得平衡提出了一些建议_MWvc7Ps;N^Ksgs(GH。

Amer Kaissi is a professor of healthcare administration at Trinity University and the author of Humbitious: The Power of Low-Ego High-Drive Leadership.

阿梅尔·凯西是美国三一大学医疗管理学教授，著有《谦虚：低自我高驱动领导力的力量》一书HTCTribJSbQy5jbAvh6X。

Amer, so glad to have you on the show.

阿梅尔，很高兴你能参加这个节目TJZ3Z9[mP)#p。

Thank you, Alison. Happy to be here.

谢谢你，艾莉森CQKOgi~&R^7@m。很高兴来到这里1rff2Z=4F4-!T%L。

Let's start with some definitions.

让我们从一些定义开始b5PWT^-zSLlYtHgt)wJ[。

What do you mean by humility, and how do you measure it?

你说的谦逊是什么意思，你如何衡量它？

Humility keeps our feet on the ground by allowing us to have an accurate assessment of our own abilities, by understanding our strength and our weaknesses.

谦逊让我们能够准确地评估自己的能力，了解自己的长处和短处，从而让我们脚踏实地E-QH(yhS1f%。

And there's been research that has been done for the last 10, 15 years that have allowed us to measure it very objectively in fact.

在过去的10到15年里，有一些研究让我们能够非常客观地衡量它^GXQAdo3y4。

And of course, it's better to be measured by other people than for it to be self-reported, but we have a lot of measures now that allow us to understand whether a certain individual or a certain leader is humble.

当然，让别人来衡量要比自我报告要好，但我们现在有很多衡量标准，可以让我们了解某个人或某个领导者是否谦逊|jZ^QoW!#QyqF*。

For example, are they the kind of person who is self-aware?

例如，他们是那种有自我意识的人吗？

Are they open-minded and teachable?

他们是否思想开放，易受教育？

Are they the kind of person who is grateful for others' contributions?

他们是那种对别人的贡献心存感激的人吗？

Do they reach out to others and ask for their input?

他们会向他人寻求建议吗?

So, we can measure it in a fairly valid and reliable way based on the research that has been done in the last few years.

因此，根据过去几年的研究，我们可以用一种相当有效和可靠的方法来衡量它d*Y,]JEPg=@F,hI。

Those sound like some of the same building blocks that make up emotional intelligence.

这些听起来像是构成情商的几个基本要素d@a.yzVgirPJ&C。

Absolutely. There's a lot of overlap between humility and emotional intelligence, several aspects of emotional intelligence, such as emotional self-awareness, emotional self-expression, empathy.

是的1p^,hvD*LzP。谦逊和情商之间有很多重叠之处，比如情绪自我意识，情绪自我表达，同理心y*Q@2y_1*r。

The difference though is that, with humility, it's really more about, are you the kind of leader that stays on the grounds?

不过，不同之处在于，“谦虚”更重要的是，你是那种脚踏实地的领导者吗？

You know one of the definitions of humility comes back from the origin of the term, which is the Latin humus, H-U-M-U-S.

谦逊的定义之一来自于这个词的起源，它是拉丁语H-U-M-U-S5K4T0[ch[C4)TytG1。

Not to be confused with the Middle Eastern, the hummus, right?

别和中东的鹰嘴豆泥搞混了c8h1X12c+21lX5^~Y=。

So humus is Latin.

所以“humus”是拉丁语]cHtfx4N!KOKXV@Xz。

And what humus meant for the Romans and for the Greeks is to be close to the ground and close to the earth.

“humus”对罗马人和希腊人的意义就是贴近地面，贴近大地ZMV!M|ER@lwX_o)zR6。

So when we apply that definition within the context of leadership, it's that understanding of the leader who stays on the ground, who stays close to his or her team members who is always in touch with them, and who listens to them with curiosity and with humility.

因此，当我们将这个定义应用到领导力的背景下时，它是对那些脚踏实地的领导者的理解，那些与他或她的团队成员保持密切联系的领导者，那些带着好奇和谦卑倾听员工的领导者VSOlne.,;Xy~D1CkNzZ。

So someone can be emotionally intelligent, but really arrogant about their emotional intelligence.

所以有些人可能情商高，但真的很傲慢h2S-+|%tN)gp。

Absolutely. And that's probably a very dangerous combination where you're using your own emotional intelligence to possibly manipulate others.

对的，这可能是一个非常危险的组合，可能会利用自己的情商来操纵他人%L^.K%|ojW!ke3*。