Yeah, oftentimes when people talk about sacred texts,

没错 很多时候 当人们谈到神圣的文字的时候

for many people the sort of thing that you say to show how serious you are is “Well, you know, we take it literally.”

对多数人而言 为了显示你的认真 你会说“你知道 我们按字面意思去理解”

That actually has caused an extraordinary amount of destruction in the world.

这样做其实有相当大的杀伤力

So I begin with, I try to take it LITERATELY.

所以我先说 我会试着按字面意思理解

So if it’s a poem, then it’s a poem.

如果是是一首诗 那就是一首诗

And if it’s a letter, who wrote it, and when did they write it, and who are they writing it to?

如果是一封信 谁写的 什么时候写的 是写给谁的

What was the world like at that time?

那时候的文字是什么样的？

If it was history but the writer is kind of winking along the way like “This is what I’m really saying,”

如果是历史 但作者的写作手法似乎有些委婉 比如“这才是我的真实意思”

then you take it with that subtlety and nuance and even humor.

那么你就会理解到它的微妙 细微差别 甚至是那种幽默

So all religious texts have to be interpreted, and the really dangerous thing is when someone says “I’m not giving you my opinion.

因此所有的宗教文字都需要翻译 真正危险的是 当有人说“我不是在告诉你我的看法

I’m just telling you what it says.” Because that’s actually their opinion!

我只是在告诉你它是什么意思” 因为他们说的其实就是自己的看法

If you deny human agency it generally leads to some sort of oppression or exploitation.

如果你否认有人为中介的存在 它就会导致某种压迫或利用

So everything gets way more interesting when you start reading it literately because you then don’t have to do those awkward explanations.

所以如果你只按字面意思去理解 一切就变得有趣多了 因为那时候你就不需要这些尴尬的解释了

One of the greatest examples of this is there’s this ancient story about Jonah who gets swallowed by a fish.

有一个很好的例子就是 有个故事讲的是约拿被一条鱼吞了

Not a whale, a fish. Because that’s what it says in the ancient text.

不是鲸 而是鱼 因为古老的文字中就是这么说的

And so the question often becomes a debate on whether or not a guy really got swallowed by a fish.

所以人们就经常争论这个人是否真的被鱼吞下了

And you have the literalists going “it says he got swallowed by a fish, he got swallowed by a fish.”

直译者会觉得“文字里说他被鱼吞了 那他就是被鱼吞了”

And then you have the others going “no, it’s a larger metaphor.”

其他人会想“不对 这是个很大暗喻”

But what’s interesting: as the story begins, the Assyrians were the worst neighbors.

但有趣的是：故事一开始时 亚述人是最坏的邻居

They were the cruel oppressors who had made life miserable.

他们是让生活充满痛苦的压迫者

And so this man Jonah is told go and bless Nineveh, and Nineveh was the capital of Assyria.

所以人们让约拿去庇佑尼尼微 尼尼微就是亚述的首都

So the story begins with a man being told “go bless your worst most heinous enemy.”

所以在故事的开始 一个男人被告知“去庇佑你最穷凶极恶的敌人”

And he doesn’t. He goes the other direction.

但他没有这么做 他做了完全相反的事

He runs away, which I think the original audience would have cheered this man Jonah on.

他跑掉了 我觉得那时的人们一定会为约拿此举欢呼的

“You go the other direction!

“你要做的恰恰相反！

Whatever you do don’t go bless the person who has made your life a living hell.”

不管你做什么都不能去庇佑让你的生活成为地狱的人”

So he eventually gets on a boat.

所以他最后上了一艘船

There’s a storm and he’s thrown overboard and he’s swallowed by a fish.

来了一场风暴 他的船翻了 他被一条鱼吞了

I think the power of the story is not arguing about whether or not he was swallowed by a fish.

我觉得这个故事的力量所在并不是争论他是不是被一条鱼吞了

I think the story was told to a group of people to confront them with how they cannot forgive their worst enemy.

我觉得给一群人讲这个故事 是为了对抗他们无法原谅最坏的敌人的做法

And will the past and the wounds that you have suffered define you and hold you back, or can you forgive?

过去和那些你所受的伤会定义你是谁并让你停驻不前吗？或者你能原谅吗？

Can you move towards your enemy, not with violence, but with love?

你能满怀爱意而不是用暴力去接近你的敌人吗？

Do the things that have happened to us define us, or is there a love that can transcend even this?

我们所遭遇的事会不会定义我们 或者有没有一种爱能超越这一切？

So this would be a classic example to me where there’s an ancient text and a story where you can in your attempt to defend it literally

所以我觉得这是个很经典的例子 有古老的文字和历史 你可以试着从字面上去理解它

actually avoid the more interesting questions of the heart that I think are the questions the storyteller is trying to get at.

实际上避免了心里一些更有趣的问题 而我觉得这些问题才是讲故事的人想要表达的重点

And yes, in our world to this day, taking some of these texts literally has caused so much violence.

确实 在今天的世界里 从字面上理解这些文字带来了很多暴力问题

You read the ancient text. You also use your mind.

你会读古老的文字 还会用自己的脑子

You listen for what new thing might be happening in the world.

你会听这世界可能发生了什么新鲜事

You read it as a fully orbed experience, and then it actually gets quite inspiring.

你会把它解读成圆形的经历 然后它就变得相当激励人了