(单词翻译:单击)
Welcome back, My guest tonight, New York Times best selling author,
欢迎回来，我们今天的嘉宾是纽约时报最畅销书作者，
whose new book is called Heretic: Why Islam Needs a Reformation Now.
她的新书名叫《异教徒:为什么伊斯兰现在需要改革》。
Please welcome to the program Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
欢迎阿亚安·希尔西·阿里。
Hello. How are you? Thanks for coming.
你好，你好吗？欢迎来到节目中做客。
Sit. How are you?
请坐，最近怎么样？
I'm good. Thank you. Thank you for joining us.
不错，谢谢。谢谢来到节目中做客。
The book is called Heretic: Why Islam Needs a Reformation Now
这本书叫做《异教徒:为什么伊斯兰现在需要改革》。
My first question would be why does Islam need a reformation now?
我的第一个问题是为什么伊斯兰需要现在进行改革？
Because unfortunately too many people are dying in the name of Islam,
因为许多人是因为伊斯兰这几个字而垂死挣扎，
too many women live under oppression.
有太多女性还在遭受压迫。
Too many Jews are being demonized for it,
许多犹太人因为它而被妖魔化，
too many gays are being killed in the name of Islam.
有太多同性恋因伊斯兰而被杀。
Too many Christians are being killed in the name of Islam.
许多基督教徒也是如此。
I think it really has the answers to have the reformation now.
所以我们要在现在进行变革。
But isn't it, if I'm remembering the reformation correctly, and it's been a while.
但是不是，如果我没记错的话，这已经有一段时间了。
Yeah. Wasn't the, aren't we having that now? Aren't we having the reformation now?
是的。那为什么我们不现在进行变革？为什么不选择现在？
The reformation was Martin Luther wanted a purer form of Christianity.
这种改革也是马丁·路德所希望的纯粹的基督教。
And so when he put that up there, it created a hundred years of violence and mayhem.
但当他提出这样的想法后，造成了数百年的暴力和骚乱。
Isn't that the process that we are going through right now?
这个是不是我们现在正在经历的？
It is the process that we're going through right now.
是的，这个就是我们正在经历的。
It's the process that I describe in the book, that you know,
这也是我在书中所提到的，
talk of reformation in Islam has been under way for a while.
让伊斯兰进行改革也有一段时间了。
And what's interesting about now is yes, there is a great deal of violence in the name of Islam
但是目前有意思的是，目前有许多以伊斯兰为名义的暴力行动，
but there is an emerging and incredibly important minority of reformers
但目前涌现了许多改革者，
who are risking their lives trying to get this change done.
他们不惜冒着失去生命的危险来进行改革。
And I stand with them. I hope you stand with them.
我支持他们，我也希望你能这么做。
Right. Well, no, I mean, I guess my point is,
对的，我的看法是，
I think people single out Islam as though there's something inherently wrong with it
许多人将伊斯兰教单独看作是一类，尽管伊斯兰教在某些方面
that wasn't wrong with other religions.
与其它宗教有些出入。
And so I guess my point is if Christianity went through almost the exact same process,
我的意思是说，如果基督教经历着与伊斯兰一样的命运，
people who thought they knew better and were purer and that created violence,
人们自认为很了解的宗教，很纯粹的宗教却引发了暴力冲突，
and so why is, I get the sense that you think Islam is different than other religions.
所以为什么，所以你认为伊斯兰教与其它宗教是不同的，对吗？
Well, I'm saying that Christianity went through that process of reformation and enlightenment
我认为基督教曾经历了改革和启蒙，
and came to a place where the mass of Christians at least in the western world,
之后至少在西方世界，多数基督教徒
have accepted tolerance in the secular state,
尤其是在这个世俗的世界中，接受了容忍，
the separation of church and state, respect for women, respect for gays. Right. Well.
政教分离，尊重女性，尊重同性婚姻等等。对的。
Well in the Muslim, well yeah, but,
但是对于穆斯林，
And in Africa I think there are still Central African Republic still has Christian,
我想在非洲地区，在中非共和国还有基督的，
Catholic school in the name of Catholicism despise and our homophobic.
以天主教名义设立的天主教学校，他们有鄙视情绪而且有同性恋恐惧症。
Yes. And also behead Muslims and do crazy things.
他们还会斩首伊斯兰人，做一些疯狂的事。
Yeah. the Central African republic.
对的，在中非共和国，
Yeah. But the majority of Christians, Right. Unlike the majority of Muslims are not subjected to violence.
恩恩。不像多数伊斯兰教徒，多数基督教徒不会受到暴力威胁。
And if you look at the,you know, 70% of the global violence in the world today,
当今世界，有70%的暴力事件，
Right. Muslims are responsible.
对的，全与穆斯林教徒有关。
And the largest number victims from it, or are suffering from it.
并且也产生了人数最多的遇难者，或是因此而遭受痛苦的人。
But I guess my point is it seems like the narrative is from some reformists
但我的观点是多数改革者认为，
that there is something inherently wrong with this religion that is not wrong with other religions.
相比于其它宗教，伊斯兰教有自身的问题。
And that's the thing that I'm trying to get at.
这是我想弄明白的事情。
Yeah, so here's the key point. Yes.
那么重点是，
There were Christians within Christianity who came out and said,
比如在基督教，基督教徒会站起来说，
you know, we need to change things. We need to reform, basically. Right.
我们需要革新，我们要从基础上进行改革。
There are now Muslims today in growing numbers, not as large as I would like to see,
如今，有越来越多的穆斯林教徒，虽然人数没有我期望中的多，
but in growing numbers we're not pointing the finger towards the Jews
但是有越来越多的人认为，他们没有指责犹太人，
or Christians or American foreign policy or some other external factor
没有指责基督教徒或是美国外交政策，或是其它外部因素，
but they're saying there is something wrong within our religion.
他们只是说伊斯兰教本身出现了问题，恩恩。
And what I'm trying to do here as someone who grew up with this religion
我想做的是作为一个穆斯林人，
and came out of it and very much, you know, driven by a desire to change it.
我今天站出来，渴望穆斯林进行改革，
to bring about change, right, to bring about change in the conversation is to,
实施改革行动，所以我们必须要先找到问题，
okay, let's identify it and what is wrong about it.
找到问题的症结，看看是哪里出现了问题。
You know, what is it with Islam that we need to change and then I have five key points.
到底我们需要在哪里进行改革，对此我有五点建议。
But I guess what I am saying is the reformation was not people who wanted to moderate Christianity,
我认为这样的改革不是为了缓和基督教，
it was people that wanted it purer who felt that the Catholic church had become corrupt.
而是那些寻求纯粹基督教的认为，天主教受到了“污染”。
The two, yeah, so the two religions, Christianity is different from Islam.
所以这两大宗教，伊斯兰和基督教是不一样的。
The ones in Islam who are, you know, "Islamic State" right now in Iraq and Syria,
有些伊斯兰，“伊斯兰国”目前驻扎在伊拉克和叙利亚，对的，
groups like that, They want a more pure form.
像这样的伊斯兰团体，他们心中的伊斯兰更为纯粹。
They want, As they interpret it, which is.
他们希望的是，就像他们所阐述的一样，
Well, and as they apply it. As they apply it.
就像他们所做的一样，就像他们做的一样，
And as the Qur'an says and as the prophet Mohamed lived in Madina,
就像《古兰经》里所说，先知默罕默德曾生活在麦地那，对的，
they're trying to emulate him in that time.
他们曾试图效仿他。
I happen to think that the Qur'an is actually written by a man and by men,
我突然认为《古兰经》是由一个人或多个人共同完成的，
and it is time for that narrative to change, so, I totally agree with,
所以该是改变的时候了，所以我完全同意，
You get what I'm saying, like to say that if we just change the text, don't we have to somewhat change,
我的意思是说，如果我们仅仅改变内容，那么我们不需要改变其它的，
No, what I'm arguing here yeah, is not to change the text.
不是，我不是说改变内容。
I see. What I'm arguing for here is for Muslims to accept the fact that
恩恩。我说的是让穆斯林接受这样一个事实，
this book is written by a man a long time ago and that morality of the 7th century,
《古兰经》是很久以前由一个人著作完成的，而7世纪的道德准则是，
But that hasn't been accepted in Christianity yet.
但这个还没有被基督教所接受。
The morality in the 7th century doesn't apply to the 21st century.
而7世纪的道德准则并不能适用于当今。
And they have to give that up. That's, that's, that's different.
这是他们要放弃的东西。这是不同。
I honestly think that most Christians have accepted that.
我真的认为多数基督教徒也已经接受了。
That the Bible was written by men.
圣经是由多人著成的。
That the morality of God knows, that's different, when doesn't apply now.
当时的道德准则不适用于现在了。
And most Muslims are struggling, on the one hand the group I call the "Mecca Muslims",
多数穆斯林正在水深火热之中，从一方面讲，我把这群人称作“麦加穆斯林”，
on the one hand, they're struggling to be as true to their religion as they possibly can
他们一方面尽可能地忠于自己的宗教，
while on the other hand they are struggling to then, you know, be modern and live peaceful prosperous lives.
而另一方面，他们还要接受现代化，过上和平富裕的生活。
And I think the way out of that is to start the conversation on the problem,
我想解决问题的方式就是展开对问题的讨论，
You would like people to buy your book.
你希望人们买你的书。
I would like to change the conversation. Yeah, buy my book, please hear it for yourself, thank you.
我是想换个话题，快来买我的书，亲身感受一下。
Okay. Heretic it's on the book shelves now. Ayaan Hirsi Ali
好的，《异教徒:为什么伊斯兰现在需要改革》已经在各大书店有售，再次感谢阿里。
