“Charlotte?”

“夏洛特？”

“Oui,” Charlotte Gainsbourg answered her mother, Jane Birkin, with a giggle.

“哎，”夏洛特·甘斯布(Charlotte Gainsbourg)笑着回答母亲简·柏金(Jane Birkin)。

It was a little like they were using the telephone for the first time. They last spoke, if you’re curious, about a week ago.

她俩的样子好像第一次用电话似的。如果你好奇，可以告诉你，两人上次对话是在一星期之前。

“But we text a lot,” Ms. Gainsbourg said.

“但是我们经常发短信啊，”甘斯布女士说。

“We do,” Ms. Birkin agreed. “But I must get into Skype. Does it work on a mobile?”

“确实，”柏金女士说。“但我肯定是迷上Skype了。它在手机上能用吗？”

“Oh yeah it does,” Ms. Gainsbourg said. “It’s just you’re always ugly, but it does work.”

“能用啊，”甘斯布女士说。“只不过总是让你显得很难看，不过确实能用。”

“Well, if I’m ugly, it’s normal,” Ms. Birkin said.

“好吧，显得我难看就对了，”柏金女士说。

They both howled with laughter. But there is something to the notion that as poised as they are, this mother and daughter — celebrated for their acting, their singing, their innate style — aren’t afraid of being ugly when it comes to their art. “I hate films when I have to pretend to be pretty,” Ms. Gainsbourg said. “It’s the thing that makes me lose confidence. The pretend is too much. So each time I have dark circles, that’s what I enjoy the most.”

两人都大笑起来。母女俩的演技、歌喉和天生的风格都曾备受赞誉，她们那么泰然自若，说起自己的艺术时，完全不害怕显得丑陋。“我讨厌那些需要我假装漂亮的电影，”甘斯布女士说。“这会让我丧失信心。伪装太过分了。所以每次我有黑眼圈的时候都特别开心。”

Ms. Birkin, who first came on the scene with a nude cameo in Michelangelo Antonioni’s 1966 film “Blow-Up,” seemed admiring. “I’ve realized this about you, and I wish I had realized it about myself earlier on,” she said. “When the whole point, when the only point, is that you’re pretty, then it’s horrifying. I’ve done a few with just being really pretty, and it’s very, very stressful. It would be much nicer to have not given a hoot, and I don’t give a hoot anymore now, but it’s a bit late.”

柏金女士最早涉足影视界是在米开朗基罗·安东尼奥尼(Michelangelo Antonioni)1966年的电影《放大》(Blow-Up)的一幕中裸体客串亮相，她对女儿的看法表示赞赏。“我发现了你这一面，我希望自己也能早点意识到，”她说。“当人们只关注你是不是漂亮，这非常恐怖。我拍过一些只靠漂亮脸蛋的片子，压力非常非常大。对相貌毫不关心感觉要好得多，现在我也已经不在乎了，不过还是有点晚了。”

Ms. Birkin, 69, who is British-born but made her career in France, was speaking from Paris in the phone interview, while Ms. Gainsbourg, 44, was in New York. As actresses, they share a fearlessness that takes them to extremes. Beginning Friday, Jan. 29, the Film Society of Lincoln Center will underscore that quality in presenting “Jane and Charlotte Forever,” a series of 19 films spanning five decades that also highlights the work of daring directors like Jacques Rivette, Agnès Varda, Jacques Doillon and Lars von Trier.

现年69岁的柏金女士生于英国，但事业生涯是在法国开始的，她在巴黎接受了电话采访，44岁的甘斯布女士在纽约接受了采访。两人都是演员，都有趋向极端的无畏性格。1月29日星期五，林肯中心电影协会将推出“永远的简与夏洛特”(Jane and Charlotte Forever)展映，其中包括19部电影，时间横跨50余年，包括雅克·里维特( Jacques Rivette)、阿涅斯·瓦尔达(Agnès Varda)、雅克·杜瓦隆(Jacques Doillon)与拉斯·冯·提尔(Lars von Trier)等以大胆著称的导演们的作品，这些影片无不体现了她们的勇敢无畏。

That appetite for risk is what Dennis Lim, director of programming at the Film Society, is most drawn to. “They’re very adventurous actresses, and they’re actresses that understand the uses of provocation,” he said. “I also like how they’re loyal. They know how to be muses.”

电影协会的放映主管丹尼斯·利姆(Dennis Lim)尤其喜爱她们的冒险精神。“她们是非常大胆的演员，她们非常懂得该怎样使用挑衅的方式，”他说。“我还喜欢她们的忠诚。她们知道该怎样成为人们的缪斯。”

Opening night will include screenings of “Antichrist,” Mr. von Trier’s graphic film starring Ms. Gainsbourg and Willem Dafoe as a couple grieving over their infant’s death, and “La Pirate,” Mr. Doillon’s career-changing film for Ms. Birkin, who plays a woman whose female ex-lover is trying to persuade her to resume their affair.

展映开幕当晚将上映冯·提尔先生的《反基督者》(Antichrist)，甘斯布女士与威廉·达福(Willem Dafoe)饰演一对痛悼幼子之死的夫妻，此外还将上映《海盗》(La Pirate)，该片由杜瓦隆先生执导，一举改变了柏金女士的演艺生涯，她在其中饰演的女主角一直受到前女友要求复合的纠缠。

The series also includes an exhibition of photographs by Kate Barry, Ms. Birkin’s daughter with John Barry, the British composer. Ms. Gainsbourg recalled that Ms. Barry, who died in a fall two years ago, was “always putting makeup on me, dressing me like a doll” when they were children.

展映系列还包括一组凯特·巴里(Kate Barry)所拍摄的照片，她是柏金女士与英国作曲家约翰·巴里(John Barry)所生的女儿。巴里女士于两年前的秋天去世，甘斯布女士回忆，两人小时候，“她总是给我化妆，像打扮洋娃娃一样打扮我”。

Then, of course, there’s the singer, songwriter, actor and director Serge Gainsbourg, Charlotte’s father, who died in 1991 but still lives on in Ms. Gainsbourg’s handsomely chiseled face and in Ms. Birkin’s voice when she sings his songs. The Film Society will screen his “Charlotte for Ever,” which touches on incest and pedophilia and features a 14-year-old Ms. Gainsbourg, and his “Je t’aime moi non plus” (“I Love You Me Neither”), which stars a 30-year-old Ms. Birkin as a boyish young waitress to whom a gay male truck driver becomes deeply attracted.

当然，别忘了夏洛特的父亲，歌手、唱作人、演员和导演，塞日·甘斯布(Serge Gainsbourg)。他于1991年去世，但当人们端详甘斯布女士英气勃勃、轮廓分明的面孔，听到柏金女士唱起他创作的歌曲时，分明还能感受到他的气息。电影协会此次将放映他的《永远的夏洛特》(Charlotte for Ever)，内容涉及乱伦和恋童，14岁的甘斯布女士主演了该片；此外还有《我爱你，我也不爱你》(Je t’aime moi non plus)，时年30岁的柏金在其中出演一个男孩子气的年轻女招待，一个男同性恋卡车司机非常迷恋她。

In another bit of familial overlap, both Ms. Birkin and Ms. Gainsbourg appear in Ms. Varda’s “Kung Fu Master,” in which Ms. Birkin, who wrote and pitched the story upon which the film is based, plays a mother who falls in love with her daughter’s 14-year-old classmate. (The boy, Mathieu Demy, is played by Ms. Varda’s son. That was Ms. Birkin’s idea.)

还有一部影片是两人共演的——她俩都出现在瓦尔达的《功夫大师》(Kung Fu Master)里，电影的故事是柏金女士自己写的，她在其中饰演一个母亲，爱上了女儿14岁的同学。这个男孩则是由瓦尔达的儿子马修·戴米(Mathieu Demy)饰演，这也是柏金的主意。

“Agnès Varda said, ‘Well, if you take Mathieu, then I want Charlotte,’” Ms. Birkin recalled. “I didn’t think Charlotte would say yes. But we wanted her bedroom. It was all shot in our house, and then the kind girl said yes. It was just too much for her to have her bedroom taken up and put another girl in her bed. I said to Charlotte: ‘You know, you can’t get out of it with Agnès. If you said yes, you can’t go back on it.’ She said she wouldn’t. But I didn’t feel she was enjoying herself enormously.”

“阿涅斯说，好吧，如果你要马修，那我也要夏洛特，”柏金回忆。“”我觉得夏洛特不会答应的。但这部片子都是在我们的房子里拍，我们需要她的卧室。然后这个好姑娘就答应了。她受不了自己的卧室被占用，让另外一个女孩躺在她床上。我对夏洛特说：‘你知道，你没法摆脱阿涅斯。如果你答应了就不能后悔。’她说自己不会后悔的。但我觉得她拍片子的时候不怎么开心。”

Ms. Gainsbourg’s response was swift: “No, I wasn’t. But she was living in our house for a year.”

甘斯布的回答很简洁：“对，我不开心，但她在我家里住了一年呢。”

She said she still treasured the time spent in her childhood watching Ms. Birkin on film shoots. It was “as if I could watch her with a microscope,” she said. “There was something so privileged about just being able to put my gaze on her.”

甘斯布说，她至今难忘童年时代看着柏金拍电影时的情形。“就像用显微镜观察她，”她说。“能够看着她都是一种荣幸。”

She also recalled the first time she saw “Je t’aime moi non plus,” on a little television in her room. “I was maybe 18,” Ms. Gainsbourg said. “It wasn’t a lot of time before my father died, and so I was able to call him up — I don’t know if I told you! I didn’t. But it was such a revelation because I had waited so long. I don’t know — I loved every single thing about it. And that was the first step of watching her as an adult.”

她也记得自己第一次用卧室里的小电视看《我爱你，我也不爱你》时的情形。“我那年大概18岁，”甘斯布回忆。“那是我父亲去世前不久的事，所以我还可以给他打电话——我可能没告诉过你，我没说过。但那是个启示般的时刻，因为我已经等了太久。我不知道，我竟然会喜欢这部片子里的一切。从那时起我才把她视为一个成年人。”

And of course, Ms. Birkin watched Ms. Gainsbourg develop as an actress as a girl. She said she was captivated by her natural ability: “She used to put down her comic book and be able to burst into tears across the garden and then go back to her comic book,” Ms. Birkin said. “It’s extremely focused, her work — she’s always believable. I don’t know whether one could say that about a lot of other actors. If she’s a heroin addict, she’s a heroin addict. If she’s a mother of three, she’s a mother of three. If she’s a virgin, she’s a virgin.

当然，柏金也看着甘斯布从小女孩成长为演员，她说自己被女儿天生的才华迷住了：“她小时候有一次放下漫画书，哭着走过花园，然后又回去拿漫画书，”柏金说。“她的作品总是那么专注，她的表演总是令人信服。我觉得这种演员并不多见。如果她演一个海洛因瘾君子，她就是个瘾君子。如果她演三个孩子的妈妈，她就是三个孩子的妈妈。如果她演处女，那她就是处女。”

“In the films she’s doing, she’s found her way to liberty. She can play all these different parts and still cook dinner for the children.”

“在她拍的片子里，她总能进入无拘无束的境界。她能饰演各种各样的角色，也能为孩子们做晚餐。”

Ms. Gainsbourg has three children with the French actor and director Yvan Attal. And his comedy “My Wife Is an Actress,” which stars him and Ms. Gainsbourg, is included in the series. It is yet another example of life’s imitating art. That may not be the case with her ravaged performances in Mr. von Trier’s boundary-pushing films, but for Ms. Gainsbourg, “exploring sick things are the most exciting.”

甘斯布和法国演员、导演伊万·阿达勒(Yvan Attal)生有三个孩子。阿达勒导演的喜剧片《我的老婆是演员》(My Wife Is an Actress)由夫妻俩亲自出演，也将在这次展映中放映。这又是一次艺术对现实生活生活的戏仿。而在冯·提尔那些挑战边界的影片里，甘斯布的表演却极具破坏性，对于她来说：“探索病态的事物是最刺激的。”

When she was shooting “Antichrist,” she recalled, Ms. Birkin was the only person she could confide in. “It was in a humorous way, because it was so extreme that I had a lot to laugh about,” Ms. Gainsbourg said. “I could go into every detail and not be ashamed about any of it.”

她回忆，拍摄《反基督者》时，她只能向柏金倾诉。“是用一种幽默的方式，因为那部片子太极端了，有很多可笑的东西，”甘斯布说。“我可以深入每一个细节，并不为任何东西感到难为情。”

“Every detail was a delight!” Ms. Birkin said.

“每个细节都很棒！”柏金说。

The freedom that Ms. Gainsbourg experiences with her mother, she said, helped her believe that she could take on “Antichrist.” Her parents could be wild, but as a child, she said, she did not suffer or feel shame. “I’m just thinking about my children and how far can I go without being a big problem for them,” she said. “I think I am a problem for them.”

甘斯布说，她和母亲一起体验的自由令她相信，她可以接拍《反基督者》。她的父母可能很疯狂，但她小时候并不觉得有什么羞耻。“我只是考虑我的孩子们，想着我能做到多过分的地步，同时又不给他们带来麻烦，”她说。“我觉得我对他们来说是个问题。”

Even though Ms. Gainsbourg is the epitome of gangly chic, she hasn’t always felt comfortable in her skin. Her mother, she noted, is literally a fashion icon: “You’re always on mood boards.”

尽管甘斯布是瘦高风尚的典型人物，她对自己却并不总是感觉自在。她说，她的妈妈才是时尚偶像：“你总是出现在（设计师的）情绪板上。”

“The thing is, growing up, I was very, very conscious that I didn’t have the look,” Ms. Gainsbourg said. Ms. Birkin laughed, but Ms. Gainsbourg added: “No, I’m not kidding. I felt so — not ugly, but just so ordinary in comparison.”

“问题是，成长期间，我一直都非常非常清楚，我没有那种相貌，”甘斯布说。柏金笑了，但是甘斯布又说：“不，我没开玩笑，我觉得自己——倒不是难看，只是和你相比太普通了。”

On a motherly note, Ms. Birkin had the last word: “You did well to be just yourself and not to try and be like anyone else, because there’s nobody else that looks like you, and there’s nobody else that performs like you.”

柏金以一种充满母爱的口气做了总结发言：“你活出了自己的个性，没有成为其他人的样子，因为你的相貌、你的表演都是如此与众不同。”