Ma Jun, a former journalist who has become one of China’s most prominent environmentalists, was recently honored with a Skoll Award for Social Entrepreneurship for the work of his nongovernmental organization, the Institute of Public and Environmental Affairs, in increasing awareness about sources of pollution in China.In an interview, he described recent changes in the public’s concerns about the environment, his efforts to increase transparency about the sources of pollution and his organization’s launch of a new version of a mobile phone application that allows users to track the state of air and water degradation and learn how to make more environmentally sound decisions when they shop. Excerpts follow:
作为中国最为杰出的环保主义人士之一，曾作过记者的马军所创办的非政府组织公众与环境研究中心(Institute of Public and Environmental Affairs)增强了中国公众对污染源的意识。近日，他因此获颁“斯科尔社会企业家奖”(Skoll Award for Social Entrepreneurship)。在接受采访时，马军谈到了公众近年在环境关注方面的转变，自己在提高污染源透明度方面的努力，以及公众与环境研究中心所推出的新版移动应用，它能够帮助用户追踪各省空气和水质恶化的情况，并且学习在购物时如何才能做到更加环保。 采访节选如下：

Q. How did you come up with the idea for this app?
问：制作这个应用的想法是怎么来的？
A. It was 2013. At that time, after we released the pollution map on the PC platform, we were able to motivate more than 1,700 companies to change their behavior. But there were many more and obviously we needed to scale up our work.
答：那是2013年的事。当时我们在PC平台上推出了污染地图后，成功地动员了超过1700家污染企业改变他们的排污行为。但是还有更多这样的企业，很明显，我们需要扩大工作规模。
We needed more people to join this effort and we needed a higher level of transparency. So we decided to launch a transparency initiative with 25 organizations and N.G.O.s calling for a total release of monitoring data.
我们需要更多人一起共同努力，需要更高的透明度。所以我们决定同25家组织和NGO一起发起一场透明度倡议，呼吁发布整体监测数据。
Our first request was for online monitoring data. For more than 10 years this kind of data could only be accessed by environmental agencies, not by the public. To our surprise, the Ministry of Environmental Protection came up with a bylaw to require real-time disclosure.
我们首先要求的是在线监测数据。在过去十多年里，只有环保部门才能获取这类数据，公众是无法获得的。不过让我们惊讶的是，国家环保部发布了一项规定，要求对数据进行实时披露。
Starting in 2004, more than 20 provinces created platforms to carry real-time monitoring data on China’s largest industries.
2004年开始，20多个省搭建了平台，公布对中国最大几个行业的实时监测数据。
Toward the end of 2013 we started preparing this app. The real-time disclosure created a need and also made it possible to sustain such a product.
到2013年底，我们开始筹备这款应用。数据的实时披露创造了一种需求，同时也使它能撑得起这样一个产品。
The mobile Internet is so popular. We believe it can help people to access the data and, more than that, tap into social media. So people can not only access monitoring data but also share it.
移动互联网非常受欢迎。我们相信它不仅能够帮助人们获取监测数据，还能让人们通过利用社交媒体分享数据。
Q. How does the app work?
问：它是怎么用的呢？
A. The 1.0 version was launched on June 9, 2013. It provided people access to air quality data in 190 cities, plus monitoring data for major air pollution emitters. Air quality data is something that people really need in China. Many cities can’t meet healthy air quality standards, and people check air quality data like they check weather forecasts.
答：我们在2013年6月9号推出了应用的1.0 版本。它向人们提供190座城市的空气质量数据，以及主要空气污染源的监测数据。空气质量数据是中国人特别需要的东西。很多城市无法达到健康的空气质量标准，人们像查看天气预报一样频繁地查看空气质量数据。
Then we added monitoring data. There are many people who don’t just want to know which day the air is bad and when they need to keep their children indoors, they want to solve this problem. This app gives them chance to join the fight against pollution.
之后我们增加了监测数据。很多人不只是想知道哪一天空气糟糕，什么时候孩子不宜出门，他们想要解决这个问题。这款应用提供机会让他们一起加入对抗污染行列。
They can share monitoring data on Weibo and let more people understand the pollution problem and the violation record of those major emitters.
人们可以通过微博来分享监测数据，让更多的人了解污染问题和主要污染源的违法记录。
Through this more than 400 emitters have openly addressed their emissions records. Sometimes they claim something is wrong with the data. Many more explain what went wrong and how they solved the problem. Some provide detailed correction plans. In Shandong Province, government agencies gave them deadlines to fix the problem. We created a countdown clock attached to each factory, so when users click it they can see the corrective action plan with the countdown clock.
超过400家污染企业对他们的污染记录做出了公开回应。有些时候，污染企业声称数据有误。更多的时候则是对污染问题和他们的解决方案进行解释。有些企业则提供了详细的整改方案。在山东省，政府机构要求企业限期整顿污染问题。我们在应用上给每一家工厂设置了倒计时，这样用户点开应用就能看到整改行动计划和倒计时。
If they comply with the standards, the company turns blue, otherwise it’s shown in red. It’s quite visual and the whole process is under public scrutiny.
如果企业遵守标准，那么它们在应用上就会显示为蓝色，否则就为红色。这是相当形象的，整个过程都受到了公众的监督。
The 1.0 version only addresses air quality, but the new version, which is being officially launched on the 28th [of April], will help people access water quality data for rivers and lakes in different parts of China and monitoring data for major sewage plants, paper mills, dye houses and chemical factories.
新版本的应用将于4月28号正式推出。和只提供空气质量数据的1.0版本不同， 新版本的应用将会帮助人们获取中国各地的河流湖泊的水质数据，以及主要污水处理厂、造纸厂、印染厂和化工厂的监测数据。
Q. How many downloads have you had?
问：已经有多少下载量？
A. Including tests of the 2.0 version, so far more than three million.
答：包括2.0测试版本，目前已有超过300万次下载。
There has been such interaction between ordinary people and environmental agencies. I haven’t seen anything quite like this before.
普通民众和环境部门之间的互动非常活跃，这是我以前从未见过的。
Q. What has the official response been? Sometimes from the government you see both sides. They want public involvement, but they’re also wary.
问：官方的反应怎么样？有时政府表现出两面性，他们想要公众参与，但又很警惕。
A. I would say that’s definitely true with our app. The most proactive players are Shandong and Zhejiang provinces and a few others. There are also many local environmental agencies that have concerns and complaints. It caught some unprepared, when you suddenly get so many reports against some of the largest companies in a region.
对我们的应用而言，真的是这样。最积极的参与者在山东、浙江以及其他几个省份。也有许多地方的环境部门有担心和抱怨。有的地方觉得猝不及防，突然收到那么多针对当地大公司的举报。
Sometimes they have gaps in their capacity, human resources and budget. And sometimes they have restrictions. The local officials, their superiors, interfere with enforcement. They get stuck in the middle.
他们有时在能力、人力资源和财政方面有困难。有时还遇到限制。地方官员，他们的上级，还会强制干预，这让他们左右为难。
We need to communicate with those local agencies to try to help them deal with this, to work out plans to handle this new situation.
我们需要和那些地方上的政府部门沟通，帮助他们想出处理这种新情况的办法。
There are proactive ones. In Shandong, the head of the provincial Environmental Protection bureau invited us there. That’s a province with 100 million people burning 400 million tons of coal a year, probably half the total U.S. consumption. It’s quite energy intensive.
有的很积极。在山东，省环保局的领导向我们发出了邀请。这个有着一亿人口的能源消耗大省，每年燃烧四亿吨煤，几乎相当于全美国一半的消耗量。
I thought we were going to be under pressure, but actually he said, “This is exactly what we want. I’ve been told to solve this smog problem. We try hard but we can’t do it single-handedly. We need the public. The app will help. We just want make sure people don’t misinterpret the fact we have more red dots.”
我当时以为是要向我们施压，但是那位领导说，“这就是我们想要的。我受命要解决这个雾霾问题。我们很努力，但是仅靠我们是不行的。我们需要公众。这款应用会起作用。我们只是想确保不要被人误解，为什么我们的红点特别多。”
We help them explain [to citizens] it’s better to have an environmental agency give more comprehensive data.
我们帮他们（对公众）解释，环境部门提供更详实的数据是件好事。
Last year there was a statement by the premier [Li Keqiang] about going to war against pollution. Actions followed to really make it happen. In my view this decision to make online monitoring data transparent, this is a sign of China’s political will to fight pollution. I said that in the Skoll Award ceremony, and it got a standing ovation. It’s clear that if you give data to people you empower them. It’s no longer possible to continue to cover up or give continued protection to major polluters.
去年[李克强]总理做出了向污染宣战的声明。随后有切实的行动。在我看来，这项让在线监督数据更透明的决定，表明中国是愿意打击污染的。我在斯科尔颁奖典礼上这么说了，观众都起立鼓掌。很明显如果你把数据公布给民众，就不会有遮掩或者是继续保护主要污染者的事了。
In China the biggest barrier is not technology or money. It’s lack of motivation. Enforcement remains weak. In the West, people go to court. In China that judicial protection is not yet ready. We need to find alternative ways. In my view public participation is one of the few options.
在中国最大的障碍不是技术或者钱，而是缺乏动力。环境执法部门依然弱势。在西方可以上法庭。而在中国，司法保护还没准备好。我们需要找到更多方式。在我看来公众参与就是其中之一。
If people can check on their cellphone who is in violation, those who gave protection [to polluters] can be held accountable.
如果人们能在手机上找到谁在违法，那些给予（污染者）保护的人就能受到问责。
Q. Do you think public attitudes about pollution are changing?
问：你认为公众对污染的态度在改变吗？
A. Over all in China there is so much more recognition. I basically think this is a clear sign for the central government. There is political will to try to solve the problem. They understand this matter is a public health issue, a resource issue, a social stability issue and, last but not least, there’s the global issue to fight climate change. There’s a recognition. They are genuinely trying to bring this pollution issue under control. They created an air action plan and a water action plan.
答：总的来说认识上已经有很大提高。基本上我认为这对中央政府是一个清晰信号。他们有政治意愿试图解决问题。他们明白这事关公众健康问题、资源问题、社会稳定问题，尤其还有应对气候变化的全球问题。有了这样的共识，他们真心想要控制污染问题，还就空气和水的问题分别制定了行动方案。
Having said that, on the ground it’s still challenging to turn this into action. There are so much interests that could be offended, that could be impacted. And also there’s the gap we have in environmental governance. Because the cost of violations is still lower than the cost of compliance, market forces are not on our side.
即便如此，要把这些变为行动在事实上仍有困难。有太多利益会被冒犯，会被影响。同时在环境治理方面也有缺口。因为违规的代价仍旧低于合规，市场的力量没有体现出来。
Even from the government side there’s a recognition that fighting pollution needs public participation. That’s why last year we saw the Environmental Protection Law revised for the first time in 25 years. It created a special chapter with a title on transparency and public participation. It shows there’s more social consensus for the need of transparency.
连政府方面都承认，治理污染需要公众参与。这也是为什么我们看到去年环境保护法得到了25年来的第一次修改修订。新的环保法专门加入了一个以信息公开和公众参与为题的章节。这展现了需要更多透明度的社会共识。
Q. What was your reaction to receiving a Skoll Award for Social Entrepreneurship this month in Oxford?
问：你对本月去牛津接受“斯科尔社会企业家奖”作何感想？
A. Of course I’m honored, but also quite humbled. They’ve done it for quite a few years, with hundreds of social entrepreneurs recognized in different parts of the world. This is the first time there’s been someone from China. I think this will be a major support.
答：当我很荣幸，也感到受宠若惊。他们颁发这个奖已经好几年了，全球各地数百位社会企业家获得了他们的嘉许。这是首次有中国人获奖。我认为这是对我们的巨大支持。
The meeting itself has already benefited us because we can learn so much from other social entrepreneurs. This helps us to gain credibility with the business community, because some of the largest multinationals are there. And then the other people, the other awardees, I think some were quite surprised about our work because this is a different type of story than they usually hear from China.
这个会议本身已经令我们受益，因为我们可以向其他社会企业家借鉴良多。它也有助于我们赢得商业界的信任，因为有一些大型跨国公司也在场。那里还有其他人，其他获奖者，我感觉其中有些人对我们的工作感到非常惊讶，因为这与他们通常听到的中国的事情不太一样。
Q. The award comes with $1.25 million in prize money. What will you do with it?
问：这个奖项有125万美元的奖金。你会怎么花这些钱呢？
A. We will spend most of that to build on our pollution map. We now have a 2.0 version called the Blue Map. We hope the image of the blue sky that has been lost in most of our cities can inspire people to join the effort. We will use most of the prize money to try to further develop that.
答：我们会把大部分钱花在绘制污染地图上。我们现在有一个2.0版本，称为“蔚蓝地图”。我们希望蓝天的图片可以激励人们加入这项活动，因为中国大部分城市的天空都不再蔚蓝了。我们会把大部分奖金用在进一步开发这个地图上。
One of the functions we are going to add is taking a picture, so you can actually get data printed on that. So people can share their own pictures on social media and get data on that from our sources.
我们要添加拍照功能，这样你就可以在自己的照片上显示从我们的数据源获得的数据，然后你可以在社交媒体上分享这些照片，更多的人就可以看到我们的数据。
Another, much bigger function we need is to add a platform for green consumerism. It is quite important for us to engage with consumers. If we help people visualize the link between air and water pollution, factory behavior and then consumer choice. Then we develop a methodology to score those brands. If we help to visualize that, then we provide another way for people to fight pollution. I hope this gives those brands a better incentive for responsible corporate behavior.
另外，我们还需要一个更大的功能，就是增加一个绿色消费平台。让消费者参与进来，这对我们很重要。如果我们把空气和水污染、工厂的行为以及消费者的选择之间的联系进行可视化，然后制定一种方法来给那些品牌打分。如果我们做出这种可视化的资料，那么我们就提供了另一种方式，让人们来与污染做斗争。我希望这是一种更好的激励方式，来促进那些品牌采取负责任的企业行为。
With the launch of the 2.0 version, air quality data will be extended from 190 to 380 cities in China every hour. We will also have some forecasts, not just weather forecasts but also forecasts of air quality, so people better arrange their activities to avoid the worst exposure. For the first time it will have data on water quality in rivers and lakes in different parts of China. China has made remarkable progress. Three years ago no cities in China released PM 2.5 [fine particulate matter] data. Today there are 380 that do.
随着2.0版本的推出，我们提供每小时空气质量数据的中国城市数目将从原来的190个增加到380个。我们也会提供一些预报，不仅仅是天气预报，也包括空气质量预报，让人们更好地安排自己的活动，避开最糟糕的环境。这也会是首次为中国不同地区的江河湖泊提供水质数据。中国已经取得了显著的进展。三年前，中国没有任何城市公布PM 2.5[细颗粒物]数据。如今已经有380个城市在这么做。
We have to handle this quite carefully. Transparency is what we depend on. It’s very positive for the government. We give credit to the government. But it’s not easy. I hope that this can continue. If it does, it will drive more polluting factories to change. This boosts confidence for further transparency, which I think is so important.
我们必须相当小心地开展这些工作。透明度是我们的立足之所。政府对此是非常明确的。这方面我们要肯定政府。但是这并不容易。我希望能持续下去。如果真能继续，它就会推动更多污染企业做出改变。而这将进一步提高人们对透明度的信心，我认为这一点极为重要。