It’s hard to imagine two people coming from worlds as different as those of Elton John and Darren Walker.
很难想像再找到两个像埃尔顿·约翰(Elton John)与达伦·沃克(Darren Walker)这样，来自如此截然不同背景的人。
Mr. John, 67, emerged from a village outside London (where he was born as Reginald Dwight) to become one of the most successful recording artists of all time. Twenty-two years ago, he created the Elton John AIDS Foundation, which has raised more than $300 million to date. (He was knighted by Queen Elizabeth in 1998.)
约翰先生，67岁，从出生于伦敦郊外的乡下孩子（本名雷金纳德·德怀特）变成史上最成功的发片艺人。22年前，他创办了埃尔顿·约翰艾滋病基金会，截至目前该基金会筹得3亿多美元（1998年获伊丽莎白女王封为爵士）。

Mr. Walker, 55, born in a charity hospital in Louisiana and raised by a single mother in rural Texas, became a white-shoe lawyer and investment banker, then a community activist and philanthropist. Last year, he was named the president of the Ford Foundation, where he oversees about $500 million in annual grants, and recently played a critical role in saving Detroit’s pensions and art collection in the city’s bankruptcy proceedings. He lives in Manhattan with his partner, David Beitzel, a contemporary art dealer.
沃克先生，55岁，出生于路易斯安那的一所慈善医院，在德克萨斯州的乡下由母亲一人抚养长大，后来成为了一名杰出的律师和投资银行家，接下来又成为社区活跃分子和慈善家。去年，他被任命为福特基金会总裁，管理着每年约5亿美元的拨款，不久前，他在底特律破产程序中挽救该城的养老金和艺术收藏方面发挥了关键作用。目前，他与伴侣、当代艺术交易商戴维·拜策尔居住在曼哈顿。
Still, the two found much in common when they met in the presidential suite of the Four Seasons Hotel in Washington, where Mr. John was staying. Surrounded by large photos of Mr. John’s two young sons, Zachary and Elijah, whom he is raising with his husband, David Furnish, the pair bonded over their childhood dreams and adult challenges; the way they came to grips with their sexual identity and outsider status; and their shared commitment to social justice and the elimination of H.I.V. and AIDS.
不过，两人在约翰先生下榻的华盛顿四季酒店的总统套房里见面后，却发现他们之间其实有许多的共同之处。在约翰先生的两名幼子扎沙里耶和伊莱贾的多幅大照片（由他和丈夫戴维·弗尼什[David Furnish]一起抚养）的环绕下，当两人谈及童年的梦想以及长大后面临的种种挑战、各自处理性认同和局外人身份的方式，以及纷纷投身于根除艾滋病病毒和艾滋病、实现社会正义的事业时，又令他们一见如故。
Philip Galanes: How we operate as adults so often boils down to how we feel about ourselves as kids.
菲利普·加兰（以下简称加兰）：从大看小，成年的很多方面都可以追溯到孩童时代的自我认知。
Elton John: Well, I was scared stiff all the time.
埃尔顿·约翰（以下简称约翰）：嗯，我小时候一直就很害怕。
PG: Always in trouble?
加兰：是因为总闯祸吗？
EJ: No, I was a good little boy, too scared to misbehave. But there was always tension in the house. My parents never should have gotten married, and I dreaded my father coming home. I knew there would be a fight, and it would be over me. My mother was more loving and lenient; my father was the real disciplinarian. He never wanted me to become a musician.
约翰：那倒没有，我是一个听话的小孩，从来不敢调皮捣蛋。但家里的气氛总是很紧张。我爸妈他们完全是结错了婚，我很怕爸爸回家。因为我知道他们一定会吵架，然后气就撒到我身上。妈妈对我更好一些，也更慈爱一些；而爸爸真的是很严厉。他一直都不赞成我搞音乐。
PG: I nearly fell off my chair during your husband’s documentary about you (“Elton John: Tantrums and Tiaras”), when your mother says: “I don’t think your father loved you very much.”
加兰：在你丈夫拍摄的纪录片《埃尔顿·约翰的脾气与头冠》(Elton John: Tantrums and Tiaras)里，我看到你妈妈说“我想你爸爸不是那么喜欢你”时，惊得我几乎从椅子上跌下来。
EJ: She was right. But it was more like he didn’t understand me. Still, he shaped the person I am today. My father’s been dead for 15 years, and I’m still trying to prove something to him. I’d love for it to have been different, for him to have said, “Well done.” But he never came to see me play. He never acknowledged my success. But I don’t hate him. He did the best he could.
约翰：她说的没错。但更准确的说法是，他不了解我。不过，正是他塑造了今天的我。虽然爸爸已经过世15年了，但我还是想向他证明什么。我真心希望他不是这样的，希望他能够说一句“干得好”。但是他从来不看我表演，也从来不承认我的成功。但我并不恨他。他已经尽力去做一个好父亲了。
PG: Darren’s childhood sounds rough in a different way: Born in a charity hospital, raised by a single mom who worked as a nurse’s aide.
加兰：达伦的童年听起来是另一种不幸：出生在一个慈善医院，由给护士当助手的妈妈一人养大。
Darren Walker: It was rough economically, but not emotionally. Listening to Elton made me realize: The last time I saw my father, I was 5 years old — and he’s still alive, still living in the same small town where I was born. But I wouldn’t know him if he walked through that door. But in some ways, it was liberating. My mother always told me she loved me. She affirmed my quirks and my differences, and that gave me confidence.
达伦·沃克（以下简称沃克）：在经济上是一种不幸，但在情感上不是。听埃尔顿在谈他的童年时，我想起最后一次见到父亲，是在我5岁的时候——那个时候他还健在，还生活在我出生的那个小城。但他若是进了我家门，我也不会认出他来。从某种程度上说，这也是一种解脱。妈妈总是跟我说她很爱我。我的古怪与与众不同她都照单全收，这给我带来了信心。
PG: And like Elton’s parents, she worked hard for your education.
加兰：而且跟埃尔顿的父母一样，为了让你能念书，她也是很辛苦地工作。
DW: I remember standing on the front porch of this little shotgun house we lived in, and a lady walked up to my mother and said, “I’d like to enroll your son in a new program called Head Start.” It was the first year, and they were looking for children who fit my profile: poor, African-American, rural. My mother said: “Of course! Sign him up.” And there began my love of books and reading.
沃克：我记得有天我站在我家排房的前廊上，有一个女士走过来跟我妈妈说，“我想让你的儿子加入我们的‘拔得头筹’(Head Start)项目。”那是该项目的第一年，他们要找的正是我这样的小孩：贫困、非裔美国人、住在乡下。我妈妈说：“当然可以！给他把名报上。”从那时起，我开始了对书与阅读的爱好。
EJ: Same here. I didn’t grow up with much. We didn’t have much money. But the books and gramophone records I had, I loved them and kept them pristine.
约翰：我也是这样的。我的成长环境一般，家里也不是太有钱。但我还是有自己的书和留声机唱片，我好爱惜这些东西，把它们保存得跟新的似的。
DW: My grandmother was a domestic for a well-to-do family in Houston. And when we’d visit her, she would bring home things the family was giving away: a sweater with a Neiman Marcus label. Brooks Brothers, places I’d never heard of. But more importantly, she brought home all these books. I loved the art books. I’d get a brown paper bag from the Piggly Wiggly, and stuff it with books and clothes, and just luxuriate in them.
沃克：我的祖母（或外祖母）在休斯顿的一户有钱人家当佣人。我们去她那里玩的时候，她会把一些这家人不要的东西带回家：尼曼·马库斯的毛衣，还有布鲁克斯牌的衣服，这些名字我都从来没听说过。但最重要的是，她会把他们不要的书带回家。我喜欢艺术类的书。我用一个从连锁超市“小猪扭扭”拿的棕色纸袋，把这些书和衣服装起来，觉得快活得不得了。
PG: It sounds as if these objects conjured up. ...
加兰：听起来这些东西像是施了魔法一般……
EJ: Another world! These objects I loved — the LPs, the singles, the books, the cowboy outfit — they took me out of where I was, and brought to a place I could only dream about.
约翰：它们构成了另一个世界！我爱的那些东西——密纹唱片、单曲唱片、书、牛仔用品什么的，把我从现实中带走，带到一个梦中的世界。
PG: What were your first dreams for yourselves?
加兰：你们最早的梦想是什么？
EJ: I played piano at a very early age. It got me attention, and I liked it. I like making people happy. But music wasn’t my dream until I discovered Elvis Presley in 1957. I was sitting in the little barbershop in our village, waiting to have my hair cut, and I saw this picture of Elvis. He looked like an alien — really weird but amazing. And by coincidence, my mom brought home a copy of “Heartbreak Hotel” that week. How weird is that? And after I saw Elvis and heard his music, there was no going back.
约翰：我很小就开始弹钢琴。它引起了我的注意，而且我也很喜欢它。我喜欢逗人开心。但直到我在1957年发现了猫王，音乐才成为我的梦想。当时我坐在我们村的小理发店里，等着剪头发，然后我看见了猫王的照片。他看起来就像是一个外星人——很怪也很棒。巧的是，就在那周，我妈买回家他的唱片，那张《伤心旅馆》。你说神不神？在看到他的照片后又听到他的歌，然后就一发不可收拾。
DW: I was always dreaming of being someplace else, someplace that wasn’t a small town. I remember watching “Green Acres” on television. You know the part where Lisa sings that she loves Park Avenue, but she’s going to the farm? I used to scream at the TV, “Don’t do it!”
沃克：小时候我总是梦想着生活在其他地方，我不要在小城市呆着。记得在电视上看《绿色的田野》(Green Acres)。你还记得丽莎唱她喜欢公园大道，但准备去农场那一段吗？当时我冲着电视大喊：“别去呀！”
EJ: I wanted to go to America. All the great music I listened to as a child came from here. I didn’t have any dreams of becoming a star. That’s just fate and life and God’s will.
约翰：那会儿我好想去美国。我小时候听到的所有好听的歌曲，都是美国歌。我从来没想过当大明星。这是命运和人生的安排，是上帝的意志。
DW: But when I got to the other world, I was petrified. My first days at the University of Texas at Austin, which was reserved for Texas elite at the time, pushed me so far out of my element. The first time I was presented with a full place setting at dinner, I had no idea what to do.
沃克：但是当有机会来到另一个世界的时候，我简直石化了。刚到德州大学奥斯汀校区的时候——当时这还是一个属于德州精英的学校，一下子把我猛推到不得其所的境地。第一次用全套餐具吃饭的时候，我完全傻眼。
EJ: You didn’t know which one to pick up first. I was never taught that, either. Did people give you a hard time?
约翰：你不知道先拿哪一个。也没有人教过我。其他人欺负你了吗？
DW: People often say: “You were in the South. It must have been racist. You must have felt so excluded.” But I was embraced. I was class president and chairman of the Texas Student Union. But it was also confounding. I was at a party for students once at the governor’s mansion in Austin. And this lady walked towards me, and I extended my hand, and she said, “I’d like a gin and tonic, please.”
沃克：人们总是说，“你生活在南部，一定有严重的种族歧视。你一定感觉自己受到了排斥。”但大家接纳了我。我是班长和德州学生会的主席。但也有尴尬的时候。有次我在奥斯汀的州长宅邸参加为学生举行的一个派对。有位女士冲我走过来，我伸出手，结果她说，“请给我来一杯金汤尼。”
PG: How did you cope when reality began to exceed your dreams?
加兰：但现实开始超出你的想像时，你是怎么处理的？
EJ: The first five years of my career, there was so much work and enjoyment. I was in America and successful, meeting people I never thought I’d meet — in art and entertainment and politics. I was a kid in a candy store. But I was very naïve. I saw someone taking cocaine, and I asked my manager what it was. I had no idea what a drug was. And that was when my journey changed.
约翰：我职业生涯的头五年时间，有好多工作也有很多乐子。我在美国也非常成功，遇见各种我从未想过会遇到的人——艺术圈的也好，娱乐圈的也好，政坛的也好。我就像是小孩进了糖果店。但我太天真了。我看见有人在使用可卡因，我就问我的经纪人，那是什么。我对毒品完全没有概念。也就是在那个时候，我的人生之旅发生了转变。
PG: What about the drugs appealed to you?
加兰：你怎么会对毒品感兴趣的？
EJ: At school, I was never quite in the gang. So, when I got to the point when I was 28 and saw the cocaine, I thought, “Maybe I want to join the clique.” It was the worst decision I ever made. I thought, “I’ll join in, and they’ll accept me.” Remember, I hadn’t gotten my father’s acceptance, and that stays with you. It’s what drove me to work so hard and be so prolific. But cocaine got in the way.
约翰：在学校的时候，我不是特别合群。所以，一步步地，在28岁的时候我看到了可卡因，我想，“也许我想加入这个小团体。”那是我所做过的最为错误的决定。我想的是，“我要加入，他们会接纳我的。”还记得吧，我没有获得父亲的承认，这一直是我的心病。这驱使我非常努力的工作，使劲创作。但可卡因把我拦下了。
DW: I remember the first time someone offered me a joint. I said, “No, thank you!” I knew the implications for a low-income African-American male who might be arrested. A friend got arrested for smoking pot, and his father took care of it — like that! But I knew no one would take care of me. So I never took a puff.
沃克：我还记得第一次有人给我大麻的情形。我说，“不用了，谢谢你！”我知道这会让一个低收入的非裔美国男人去坐牢的。我有个朋友就因为抽大麻被抓起来了，是他父亲把他给弄出来的——没费什么力气！但我知道，我要抓进去了，没人会把我捞出来。所以，我从来没吸过毒。
PG: Do you ever stop noticing that you’re the only person of color, the only gay person sitting in the powerful conference room?
加兰：在一些重要的场合，你是不是不用再去想自己是唯一的有色人种、唯一的同性恋？
EJ: Did you still encounter barriers?
约翰：你是否仍然遇到隔阂？
DW: There were certainly barriers. But I have to be African-American, and I have to be gay. That’s what I am.
沃克：当然还是有隔阂。但我就是非裔美国人，我就是一个同志。那就是真实的我。
EJ: Hooray!
约翰：说得太好了！
DW: At some of the tables I sit around, I have a lot of work to do, challenging stereotypes.
沃克：在我呆过的一些场合，有很多工作要做，我要挑战类型化的刻板印象。
EJ: Pushing dominoes over.
约翰：把多米诺骨牌推倒。
DW: I was at a dinner party, and the person next to me was deriding all of the government’s poverty programs. And I said: “I benefited so much from the war on poverty. I was in Head Start. My college education was financed by Pell grants.” And his response sounded like, “Why can’t other black people be like you?” I had to remind him that even though talent is spread evenly across America, opportunity is not. There are a lot of people who think their success is completely a function of their talent.
沃克：有一次我参加一个晚宴，坐在我旁边的一个人嘲笑所有的政府扶贫计划。于是，我说：“我以前就是从贫困战中获益的人。我在‘拔得头筹’项目里面。我的大学教育，是由佩尔助学金资助的。”他的回答是，“为什么其他黑人不能学学你？”我不得不提醒他，在美国各地，哪里都有有才华的人，但机会却不是平均分配的。有许多人认为自己之所以取得成功，完全是因为自身的才华。
EJ: It’s luck, and it’s following your instincts. Early on, I was playing in a band at this cabaret. And I’m thinking, “I don’t want to play to people who are eating fish and chips.” I was tubby and insecure, but something told me this was not going to be what I did. So, when I saw an advertisement for Liberty Records, I rang up for an appointment. I can’t think how I had the courage to do it. But I went in and said, “I can sing and write songs, but I can’t write lyrics.” And off the top of a pile, this guy pulls an envelope and says: “Well, this guy sent in lyrics. Take them home.” They were Bernie Taupin’s, and we’ve been writing together for 48 years. All because I took that leap of faith that’s inside all of us.
约翰：是运气，是对直觉的听从。早年间，我曾加入过一个在卡巴莱（指在晚上提供歌舞表演的餐馆或夜总会）表演的乐队。我想“我才不要给一群正在吃鱼和炸薯条的人表演。”我又矮又胖，没什么生活保障，但冥冥之中我就觉得这不是我要做的。所以，当我看见自由唱片公司(Liberty Records)的广告时，我就打电话去预约面试。我也不知道当时怎么有这么大的勇气。但我进去之后说，“我能唱歌也能写歌，但我不会写词。”面试的人从一堆材料的上面抽出一个信封，说，“这人寄来了歌词。你拿回家吧。”那是贝尔尼·托潘(Bernie Taupin)创作的歌词，从那以后我们合作了48年。所有这一切，都是因为我接受了存在于我们所有人心中的信心之跃(leap of faith)。
PG: But leaps of faith can be scary.
加兰：但信心之跃有时候可能会把人给吓住。
EJ: Of course! Fear holds us all back. It’s the most derogatory thing in the human race. Take the crippling problem of H.I.V. in the American South — one of the places our foundation donates a lot of money. A gay African-American male in the South is often afraid to say he’s gay. Then he gets H.I.V., and he’s afraid to say that, too. It’s a double whammy. And it’s because we don’t have enough role models like Darren in this country.
约翰：当然！恐惧令我们退缩。这是人类身上最具贬损意义的事情。以艾滋病病毒在美国南部所带来的严重后果为例——那里也是我们的基金会捐了很多钱的地区之一。一个南部的非裔美国人同性恋男性往往不敢公开自己是同性恋。然后，他感染了艾滋病病毒，而且他也不敢跟人说。这是双重的打击。这也是因为在这个国家，像达伦这样的行为榜样还是太少了。
DW: Part of it is also the social construction of black masculinity: macho, low-riding pants. That’s one model — and not to knock it — but we need more. If your choice as a black man is to be an athlete or a rapper, what do you expect society is going to get?
沃克：还有爷们样子、穿得很低的裤子这些黑人男子气概的社会建构在作祟。那是一种样式，不是批评它，但我们需要更多的样式。如果作为一名黑人男性你的选择不是去当运动员就是当说唱歌手，那你又能指望社会会怎么看？
EJ: Well, I want to make a difference in that. We both do. But changing big problems in this country is hard.
约翰：嗯，我想改变这个状况。我们都在想这件事。但改变这个国家的一些大问题，真的很难。
DW: This is what’s amazing about Elton — much more so than Elton the musician is Elton the humanitarian. He’s put his name on the line for 22 years though his AIDS foundation. And the path he chose is not the glamour path. He’s focused on the American South because that’s where the highest prevalence is, where the growth in new infections is — and sadly, in states with the frailest health systems.
沃克：这正是埃尔顿了不起的地方，比作为音乐家的埃尔顿更了不起的是那个作为人道主义者的埃尔顿。通过他的艾滋病基金会，过去22年里，他一直在出钱出力。他选择的这条道路，并非迷人的坦途。他的关注点放在美国南部，因为那里的流行程度最高，还有那里的新发感染增长率，而且，遗憾的是，那里也是健康系统最为薄弱的几个州。
EJ: And the poorest economies. If we leave people behind because of their circumstances, because they’re gay black men or incarcerated or intravenous users, then we give them no hope. And that’s the most evil thing I can think of.
约翰：经济也最差。如果我们仅仅因为人们所处的环境不好，仅仅因为他们是黑人同性恋或者是坐牢或者通过静脉注射毒品就抛弃他们，他们就会失去希望。这是我所能想到的最为邪恶的事情。
PG: I was surprised to learn that it was Ryan White who opened your eyes about AIDS, Elton. Why not the thousands of gay men who were dying all around you?
加兰：我很惊讶，居然是瑞安·怀特(Ryan White)引起了你对艾滋病的关注。为什么不是那些在你身边死去的，成千上万的同性恋呢？
EJ: I’m ashamed to say that when the AIDS epidemic started, I did nothing. I was taking a lot of drugs. It took this boy, Ryan White, who was being kept out of public school because he had AIDS, to open my eyes. He and his family moved me so much. They responded to their hardship with acceptance and forgiveness — with the same values as our current pope.
约翰：很羞愧，在艾滋病爆发之初，我什么都没做。我忙着吸毒。是瑞安·怀特这个因为艾滋病而被公立学校拒绝的孩子，引发了我的关注。我被他和他的家人深深打动了。面对苦难，他们的态度是容忍、原谅——正是当今的教皇所信奉的价值观。
DW: Don’t we love the pope?
沃克：我们怎么能不爱教皇？
EJ: He’s my new hero.
约翰：他是我心目中新的英雄。
DW: Mine, too.
沃克：也是我的。
EJ: So, I was in Indianapolis in the last week of Ryan’s life. My life was crap, and I hated myself. I would complain about this, complain about that. And this beautiful boy never complained about getting AIDS. This may sound like a sweeping statement, but he seemed like Jesus to me — kind and forgiving and full of love. It took a child to die before this country stood up and took any notice of AIDS.
约翰：所以，在瑞安生命的最后一周，我在印第安纳波利斯。我的生活跟屎一样，我恨我自己。我抱怨这个，抱怨那个。这个漂亮的孩子却从未抱怨自己感染了艾滋病。这听起来像是一概而论，但在我看来他的确就像是耶稣一般——仁慈、宽容、充满了爱。一个孩子以生命，换来了这个国家对艾滋病的关注与行动。
PG: And within two years of Ryan’s death, you’re clean and sober, and you started the Elton John AIDS Foundation?
加兰：在瑞安去世后的两年时间里，你戒毒戒酒，创办了埃尔顿约翰艾滋病基金会？
EJ: Yes, in 1992.
约翰：对，那是在1992年。
DW: And remember, Elton has a much harder job than I do at the Ford Foundation. Elton has to raise money every year to give away. We have a $12 billion trust that generates a lot of money.
沃克：别忘了，埃尔顿的工作可比我在福特基金会的工作要难多了。埃尔顿每年都得筹钱。我们有一个120亿美元的信托，它能生出不少钱来。
EJ: And 96 percent of what we raise goes out to the people.
约翰：我们募来的款项中96%都用了出去。
DW: That’s unprecedented. No other organization working on AIDS that has that record.
沃克：这是史无前例的。还没有哪一个艾滋病组织创下过这样的记录。
EJ: I see so many charitable organizations go out of business because they spend ridiculously. We’ve always kept it lean and mean. If people are going to give me money, I want to spend it wisely.
约翰：我看到许多慈善机构因为挥霍无度而关张。我们总是节省再节省。如果人们给我钱，我就想把它用在刀刃上。
DW: Where we at the Ford Foundation and Elton’s foundation intersect is in our shared belief in the right of every person on this planet to live with dignity. It would be easier for Elton to focus on New York and San Francisco because that’s where the glamour is. But in rural Mississippi, in rural Georgia, there is very little support for people living with AIDS.
沃克：我们福特基金会和埃尔顿的基金会的相交之处，就是我们都相信这个星球上的每个人都有带着尊严生活的权利。如果埃尔顿把注意力放在纽约和旧金山，事情要容易得多，因为那是些更体面的地方。但正是在密西西比的乡下，乔治亚州的乡下，人们很难获得与艾滋病共处方面的支持。
EJ: The people who are outcast are the ones who need support. We have to lift their spirits up, make sure they feel wanted. Because if you lose that, there’s nothing left.
约翰：被抛弃的人正是需要帮助的人。我们必须让他们振奋起来，确保他们觉得受到了关爱。如果你失去了被人关爱的感觉，也就完蛋了。
PG: You see H.I.V./AIDS as an issue of social justice?
加兰：你把艾滋病病毒和艾滋病视为一个关乎社会正义方面的议题吗？
DW: When you look at the beginning of AIDS activism, it was galvanized by upper-middle-class white men in New York and San Francisco. But now that the faces are starting to look different — poor rural whites and blacks in Mississippi — continuing the momentum of that movement is hard.
沃克：你看看艾滋病权利运动之初，它是由纽约和旧金山中上阶层的白人男性所激发的。但现在，参与者的面孔出现了变化——密西西比州贫困的乡下白人和黑人——再继续维持该运动的势头就变得很难了。
EJ: We’re swimming faster, but we’re swimming against the tide sometimes. But I’m always optimistic. There’s much more good in this world than bad. You just hear about the bad. Remember: People were dying within six weeks of getting this disease in the ’80s!
约翰：虽然我们游泳的速度更快了，但有时候我们面对的是滔天大浪。不过我总是乐观的。这个世界上好的东西总是比坏的东西多。但你听到的，总是坏的东西。别忘了：在八十年代，得了这种病的人不出六周就会死。
DW: I’m like Elton: radically optimistic. My own improbable journey from a small town in Texas to president of the Ford Foundation is a uniquely American story. And there are many stories like mine in America.
沃克：我跟埃尔顿一样，是理性的乐观。我从德州的一个小城到今天福特基金会的总裁这段令人难以置信的路程，是一个独特的美国故事。在美国，还有很多跟我类似的故事。
PG: You’re both bridge-builders: Elton talking to Rush Limbaugh about gay marriage; Darren building a private coalition to help save pensions and the Art Institute in bankrupt Detroit. Did you have to train yourself to work with people who aren’t natural allies?
加兰：你们两个都是搭建桥梁的人。埃尔顿跑去跟拉什·林堡（Rush Limbaugh，以保守出名的脱口秀主持人）聊同性婚姻；达伦建立了一个私人联盟，帮助破产的底特律挽救养老金计划和艺术学院。你们是否有训练自己去如何跟天生不可能成为盟友的人共事呢？
EJ: I’ve been sober for 24 years now, and one of the best lessons it taught me is to listen. When it comes to people like Rush Limbaugh, or people who might enrage you sometimes, dialogue is the only way. You have to reach out.
约翰：我戒酒24年了，它教会我的最重要的一课就是倾听。对于像是拉什·林堡这样的人，或者那些有时候会让你大发脾气的人，对话是唯一的途径。你必须去倾听他们的意见。
DW: And stop asserting ideology. That just lets us keep affirming our own beliefs.
沃克：还有，不要在意识形态上纠结不休。那只会让我们没完没了地申明自己的信仰。
EJ: Whether you make an impact in one year or 30 years, it doesn’t matter. You have to put your foot in the water and start the process.
约翰：你的影响力究竟只能持续一年时间还是30年时间，并不重要。你必须以身试水，迈出第一步。
DW: God knows, there have been times in my life when I was done an injustice, or had every right to respond with an expletive. But it’s better to hold back and keep trying to find common ground.
沃克：老天爷知道，在我生命中有多少次遭遇不义之举时，我完全有理由骂回去。但更好的做法是克制，努力寻找双方的共同点。
EJ: Better to build a bridge than a wall.
约翰：搭建桥梁比砌墙要好。