第一部分

2009年2月20日至22日，带着经贸、环境、能源以及气候等议题，美国国务卿希拉里•克林顿迎来了她就任国务卿后的首次中国之行。2月22日，希拉里在北京接受中国日报网特约主持人、清华大学教授、中国著名气候与环境政策专家齐晔博士专访，畅谈她此次中国之行的感受，解读中美在气候、环境等重要领域的合作问题，并回答中国网友提问。

The U.S. and China Working Toward Clean Energy
Hillary Rodham Clinton

Secretary of State

Online Chat Moderated by Professor Qi Ye, Hosted by China Daily

Beijing, China

February 22, 2009

PROFESSOR QI: First of all, our netizens are very much interested in learning how your family -- you know, you, your family, former President Clinton, Chelsea -- do the environment - the energy conservation.

中国日报网 齐晔：各位网友大家好，欢迎收看中国日报网《环球对话》节目，我是清华大学的齐晔教授，今天的嘉宾是美国国务卿希拉里·克林顿，我们将和她一起讨论环境保护、能源和气候变化问题。首先，我们的网民非常感兴趣地想了解您的家庭、您、还有克林顿总统、女儿切尔西在环保、节约能源方面的做法是什么？

SECRETARY CLINTON: Well, first of all, let me thank you for having me be able to speak to the netizens – I like that phrase -- and I am so pleased that you are focusing on such an important topic as energy efficiency and climate change.

希拉里·克林顿：首先谢谢您让我有机会能和（中国的）网民交谈，非常高兴看到您把重点放在能源效率和气候变化这么重要的话题上。

In our own lives, we have tried to be much more conscious of what we should do. So, for example, we use compact fluorescent bulbs, which are less of a drain on the electricity grid. We have installed more high-energy resistant windows, more insulted windows. We have, obviously, insulated our utilities and our homes. We have also recycled, so that we are trying not to add to the landfill waste more than absolutely necessary.

在平常的生活中，我们努力有意识地做一些力所能及的事。譬如说我们会用一些小型的日光灯和不太耗电的灯泡，另外我们安装了隔热窗，我们也做垃圾回收，除非没有别的选择，我们尽量减少一些需要填埋的垃圾。

第二部分

And my husband, of course, with the Clinton Foundation, is running a climate change program with, I think, 40 cities around the world working on higher energy efficiency, and so much else. So, we have tried to do more, but we are constantly asking ourselves what more we can do.

另外，我丈夫克林顿的基金会正在世界各地40多个城市推行一个与气候变化有关的项目，他们从事着提高能源效率及其相关的工作。我们在为此付出更多的努力，同时我们也在不停的问自己，我们还能做些什么。

PROFESSOR QI: Great, thank you. And during this trip you have emphasized this cooperative -- this positive cooperation. Would you mind to elaborate a little bit on that, you know, how that is going to work for this China-U.S. cooperation on environment, energy, and climate change?

中国日报网 齐晔：谢谢，您在此次访问中强调了积极合作，您能否对中美如何推进在环保、能源以及气候领域的合作做一下详细的说明？

SECRETARY CLINTON: Well, as part of the agreement in principle that we announced yesterday between myself and Foreign Minister Yang, we will enter into strategic and economic dialogues co-chaired by myself and the Treasury Secretary.

希拉里·克林顿：原则上来讲，作为我和杨洁篪外长昨日宣布的协议的一部分，（中美之间）要继续进行战略经济对话，美方由我和财政部长共同牵头。

And one of the most important tracks will be clean energy and climate change. We wish to create a series of actions and partnerships between our countries, between our businesses, our academic institutions, our citizens. And we hope to work together in the lead-up to Copenhagen at the end of this year, with a new climate treaty. We hope that there will be many opportunities, as I saw for myself yesterday, for partnerships between American companies and Chinese companies to produce cleaner energy. And our new Energy Secretary, Dr. Steven Chu, wants to work to help create more intellectual property that would be jointly designed and implemented by Chinese and American researchers.

（在这一对话机制中）最重要的轨道之一就是清洁能源和气候变化，我们想在两国、以及两国的商业机构学术机构和公民之间建立一系列的伙伴关系，举行一系列的活动。我们希望在年底哥本哈根（气候变化会议）上能达成新的气候变化协定，也希望能像昨天我看到的一样，发掘更多美中企业间合作发展清洁能源的机会。而且我们（美国）新上任的能源部长朱棣文，也希望通过努力发展更多由美中双方的研究人员共同设计执行的专利技术产品。

So, we are just at the beginning of this cooperative relationship on clean energy and climate change. But I am very hopeful that it will continue to grow.

美中双方在清洁能源和气候变化领域的合作关系还刚刚起步，但我希望双方的合作能继续开展下去。

第三部分

PROFESSOR QI: Great. Does this mean the 10-year framework, the cooperative effort developed during the strategic economic dialogue is going to continue, and is going to work through all these areas related to environment, climate change, and energy conservation?

中国日报网 齐晔：这是不是意味着双方在战略经济对话合作框架下达成的有关环保、气候、能源领域的10年合作框架还会继续下去？

SECRETARY CLINTON: Yes, and we are going to build on the 10-year strategic dialogue about climate change and clean energy. We want to expand it even more and I was heartened by the commitments shown by the Chinese government to Copenhagen, that they want to participate and look for how the Chinese economy and the Chinese policies can contribute to lowering emissions.

希拉里·克林顿：是的，我们将在《中美能源环境十年合作框架》的基础上进一步扩大双方的合作。我很高兴看到中国政府对参与哥本哈根会议所做出的努力，我也想看中国的经济和政策会对减排做出怎样的贡献。

Historically, as you know, the United States is the greatest emitter. But this year the Chinese surpassed us. And we can't look at per capita basis, we have to look at absolute emissions, and how we reverse that. So this is going to be an expanded aspect of our dialogue.

众所周知，历史上美国是（二氧化碳）排放量最多的国家，但今年中国的排放量超过了我们。我们也仅不能按照人均的标准来看排放，也要看绝对的排放量，然后再考虑怎样逆转这一局势，而这将是中美双方将要扩大对话的领域。

PROFESSOR QI: There is no question that China and the U.S. are the two largest emitters of greenhouse gases in the world. And that is also a very important reason for the two to work together. And when the two governments working hard, trying to get kind of agreement, you know, one of the things is to find a common base.

中国日报网 齐晔：毫无疑问中国和美国两个国家更有理由进行合作，两国政府正在努力在这一问题上达成一致，其中很重要的就是要找到（双方合作的）共同基础。

In the 20 years, the 2 decades from 1980 to the year 2000, the energy efficiency here in China actually doubled. And, according to the current policies and programs, the energy intensity is going to further cut by 20 percent, which means the carbon emission is going to be 3 times -- based on that program -- it's going to be 3 times as much as the entire EU commitment under the Kyoto Protocol.

从1980年到2000年20年间，中国的能源效率增加了一倍。根据“十一五”规划，在2010年中国要比2005年单位GDP能耗减少20%，而相应的二氧化碳减排量将是欧盟在《京都议定书》下所做减排承诺的3倍。

My question is, is this the kind of effort that can build the base for bilateral -- maybe a multi-lateral -- cooperation, looking into the future, say Copenhagen agreement?

展望未来，这种努力会不会成为一个双边合作、或者延续多边合作的共同基础？

第四部分

SECRETARY CLINTON: Well, that's what we're going to explore together. One of the challenges is the way that the emissions are calculated, because, as you point out, certainly there has been efficiency achievements here in China, as there has been in the United States. But we are still emitting too much.

希拉里·克林顿：没错，这就是我们要共同探讨的问题。如您所指出的，我们面临的挑战之一就是如何去计算这些排放量。和美国一样，中国在提高能源使用效率上取得了一些成就，不过我们的温室气体排放量还是太高。

And, as China continues to develop -- one of your ministers said to me yesterday that more and more Chinese people want more and more appliances, as you should. I mean, you should have a rising standard of living. It is not anything that the United States or any other country should, in any way, criticize. I mean, the people in China deserve to have a rising standard of living. We just don't want you to make the same mistakes we made.

但正如昨天有一位部长和我谈到的，随着中国经济的发展，越来越多的中国人希望能使用更多的家用电器，也应该这样。美国和任何其他国家都不应以任何方式对此提出批评。中国人民的生活水平应该不断的提高，我只是希望你们（中国）不要重蹈我们（在能源和气候领域上）的覆辙。

So that, instead of just building more coal-fired power plants, which may be slightly more efficient but still large emitters, how do we work together so that you get your energy needs met without putting more absolute greenhouse gas emission totals into the air?

我们不应再去建造更多烧煤的发电厂，他们的碳排放量还是很大的。我们应该考虑怎样共同努力，既满足能源方面的需要，又不要使温室气体的绝对排放数量继续增加。

So, we are going to explore that. But I was very pleased at the openness that was exhibited yesterday. You know, nobody has all the answers. We have to work together in ways that can discover new answers that will be effective in dealing with this global threat.

所以我们将共同探讨解决的方法，我很高兴看到昨天那样的开放性讨论，因为没有任何人知道所有的答案，我们应共同努力去寻找新的解决方法，来应对这一全球的共同威胁。

PROFESSOR QI: Right. You made this same statement yesterday -- which I very much agree on -- when speaking to the students and scholars at Tsinghua University. You said, you know, "China and U.S. should work together to avoid the kind of mistakes that the U.S. made in the past."

中国日报网 齐晔：您昨天在和清华大学的学者和学生交流时也说了这句话，我非常同意您的看法。 您说美中两国应该共同努力，来避免美国过去所犯的那种错误。

I wonder if you could name some of those mistakes, and how we're going to work together to avoid that.

您能不能再说一下，过去的那些错误指的是什么，我们应该怎样通过共同努力来避免错误再发生？

第五部分

SECRETARY CLINTON: Well, I will give you one example. Back in the early 1970s, when the price of oil shot up, and the cost of gasoline shot up, individuals and governments under President Carter -- and President Ford before him -- tried to impose conservation measures, and tried to encourage the development of higher gas mileage cars, and more energy efficiency.

希拉里·克林顿：我举一个例子，在70年代的时候，当石油价格开始猛升，汽油价格也跟着上升，卡特总统，包括之前的福特总统，他们努力实施节能措施，鼓励发展比较省油的车。

In the early 1980s, the price of gasoline went down. So everybody in America said, "Oh, well, we don't have to worry about that any more, and we don't have to have gas-efficient cars, we can continue to have very inefficient cars." And it was a mistake. It set us back.

可是80年代初，汽油的价格就降下来了，这时候美国人说：“好了，我们不要再去在意油价，我们不是非得开省油的车，可以继续开油耗高的车”。可是这是一个错误，一下倒退了回去。

Now, if you compare what our entire country did with what one state did -- California kept pushing energy conservation. California tried to push higher gas mileage cars. And, today, California still has a lower-per-capita use of electricity because of efficiency measures than the rest of the United States.

和全国的情况不同，加利福尼亚州一直推行节约能源，一直要求推广油耗低的汽车，如今加利福尼亚的人均耗电量还是比美国其他地方低，就是因为他们坚持采用节能措施。

So, we made a mistake. People thought, "Oh, we don't have to worry about it any more." We know we have to worry and we are trying to be good partners, and coordinate with other countries, including making our own changes.

美国犯过这个错误，原本以为不用再在意油耗，但是现在知道不管油价如何，节约能源是首位。美国要做“好的合作伙伴”，美国和其他的国家合作，自己也要做出改变。

PROFESSOR QI: Right, right. Well, that's a great point. Moving into the next phase, Copenhagen. IPCC, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, proposed 25 to 40 percent of cuts in greenhouse gas emissions for the developed countries in order to avoid a dangerous deterioration of the climate. Do you think that's possible for the U.S. - that 25 to 40 percent cut by the year 2020?

中国日报网 齐晔：联合国政府间气候变化委员会（IPCC）提出，到2020年，发达国家要在1990年基础上将温室气体排放量削减25%到40%，以避免气候进一步恶化。您认为2020年美国能达到这个要求吗？

第六部分

SECRETARY CLINTON: I think that a great deal is possible. Very much of it is technically possible. Our challenge now is to make it politically and personally possible. And that is what President Obama is committed to doing, is, with our stimulus money, which was a very significant down payment on modernizing our electric grid, on incentivizing changes in building construction and design, and retrofitting federal buildings.

希拉里·克林顿：我认为还是有这个可能的，技术上来讲是可以实现的。现在我们面临的挑战就是如何在政治上和日常生活中实现这个目标，这也是奥巴马总统一直努力的方向。我们用于经济刺激计划的投资，很大一部分用来建设现代化的电网、用于鼓励对建筑及其设计做出改造、用于翻新联邦政府的办公楼，以使其能效更高。

The science and technology is possible for us to be much more energy efficient. In fact, concentrating on energy efficiency more than renewable energies is a very obvious way of trying to move toward our targets. We just have to convince enough of our fellow citizens to agree with us.

节能在理论上和技术上已经成熟。我们强调提高能效，还有使用可再生能源，很明显这样我们就能达到目标。但同时我们必须说服每个公民都要做到节约能源。

You started by asking what my family does. Well, we have tried to change our mental attitude - turning off appliances, turning off lights. My late father grew up with the belief that you didn't waste things like electricity. So, we would turn off the furnace at night. We would turn off all the lights when we left a room.

你刚才问到我自己的家庭怎么做的，我们是先从改变观念做起，我们会关掉不用的电器，关上灯，我已故的父亲一直有一个信念，不应该浪费电以及其他能源，所以晚上锅炉要关掉，离开房间所有的灯要关掉。

And then, I confess, we got a little bit less aware. And I think most Americans did. So we weren't paying attention. We had so many utensils, appliances plugged into the walls and draining electricity all the time, and we would walk out of a room with all the lights on, and our big buildings would be lit all night long, and we wasted a lot of energy and we wasted a lot of money. We can't do that.

但是我得承认，后来我们变得不是那么在意，我想大部分美国人也是这样不太注意这些事。插座一直通着电、离开房间也不关灯、办公楼的灯整夜的开，我们浪费了很多能源和钱。

And so, being more efficient will take us a long way toward what we need to achieve. But it is also clear that it is not only the developed countries, it is economies like China and India that have to become full partners. How you do it, given your challenges, is something we want to work on, because we will have different approaches. And Kyoto recognized that. Different approaches to common objectives is how we have to consider the Copenhagen treaty.

在节约能源这方面，我们还有很多要改进的地方，此外不仅是发达国家，还有像中国和印度这些经济体，都需要有所作为，要实事求是因地制宜，不同的国家做法也不尽相同。这种不同在《京都议定书》里就有所体现，在哥本哈根协议中也会考虑到这点。

PROFESSOR QI: Great. And it is great to see such a great level of optimism. And thank you so much for being with us.

中国日报网 齐晔：我完全同意，非常高兴看到您对此这么乐观，感谢您作客《环球对话》，和我们的网友交流，谢谢。

SECRETARY CLINTON: Thank you. It's a pleasure.

希拉里·克林顿：谢谢，非常荣幸。

From:口译网