Hello everybody. Hello. Fantastic! This is like a schoolroom or something.
大家好。你好。真棒，感觉像回到了学校一样。
My name is Keith Lowe. I am an historian of the Second World War and its aftermath,
我叫凯斯·罗伊。是个历史学家，专门研究二战及其影响，
and even I have to admit that I've chosen a pretty crowded field to study.
甚至我都不得不承认我选了一个人才济济的领域研究。
I went into my local bookshop recently, and this is what I saw.
我最近去了一次当地的书店，我看到了这个。
Thousands of books about the Second World War are published every year,
每年有成百上千本关于二战的书出版，
and, actually, to tell you the truth, this is only a very tiny selection of what's on offer.
实际上，这只是在售的书籍数量的一小部分。
We in the West, and, actually, increasingly people in other parts of the world too,
我们西方人，还有越来越多的其他地方的人，
we are just a little bit obsessed by the Second World War.
我们有点儿被二战困住了。
We have whole TV stations which seem devoted to it.
我们有专门报道二战的电视台。
We write books about it, we write novels about it, we make films about it.
我们写二战的书，小说，拍电影。
We have university courses which are devoted to the Second World War.
大学里还有专门学习二战的课。
Whole museums are built to house World War II collections.
还有专门储存二战信息的博物馆。
Even our politicians like to get in on this act.
甚至政治家们也乐于参与其中。
Whenever there is an important anniversary of the war, they tend to gather and commemorate it, and make speeches.
不管什么时候，只要有关于二战的重要纪念活动，他们就聚集在一起纪念二战并发表演讲。
So, for example, at the 70th anniversary of the D-Day landings, June 2014,
比如说，2014年6月，诺曼底登陆70周年纪念上，
17 heads of state took time out of their schedules to come and spend the day on the Normandy beaches. Seventeen!
17国首脑专门安排出时间一起在诺曼底海滩上度过这一天。17国啊！
This included people like Barack Obama, Vladimir Putin, the chancellor of Germany, Angela Merkel, and so on.
其中包括巴拉克·奥巴马，弗拉基米尔·普京，德国总理安格拉·默克尔等等。
From my own country, we sent not only our Prime Minister, but also Queen Elisabeth II,
至于我们国家，我们不仅安排了总理前去，还去了伊丽莎白二世女王，
who is, I mean, she is now in her nineties and largely retired from public life.
她现在已经九十多岁了，已经不参与大部分的公众生活。
What other international event can do all this?
什么样的国际事件才能做到这样呢？
Even international summits struggle to get so many world leaders into one place at the same time.
连国际峰会想把这些世界领导人聚集在一起都要费一番功夫。
My question is: Why? What is it that all these world leaders,
我的问题是：为什么？是什么让这些世界领导人，
in fact what is it that all of us, think it is that we're remembering?
应该是是什么让全世界人民去纪念？
Why are we all so obsessed by the the Second World War?
为什么我们如此纠结于第二次世界大战？
You might think that somebody like me would be pretty pleased with this situation.
你可能会想我这样的人估计很满意这样的现象。
As long as the World War II industry is booming, I am always going to have a job, right?
只要二战行业蓬勃发展，我就永远不会失业。
But actually there is something about it that I find really a little bit disturbing,
但我发现有些东西我想不明白，
and I don't know whether that is just because I have an inherent distrust of a lot of politicians,
我不知道这是因为我对政客天然的不信任，
or whether it's because I've been trained to always question everything.
还是因为我接受的训练让我对任何问题都存疑。
But it strikes me that a lot of the rhetoric that gets thrown around about the Second World War,
我发现人们使用的那些关于二战的词汇，
particularly by people like politicians and journalists and diplomats and so on,
特别是政治家、记者、外交官等使用的词汇，
a lot of it doesn't seem to be about the Second World War at all; it seems to be about something else.
根本与二战无关；相关的是别的东西。
I'm not sure if I've exactly put my finger on precisely what that thing is,
我不确定我是不是准确地掌握了真相，
but it seems to be something like a way of fostering national pride,
但是感觉这像是一种培养民族自豪感的方式，
or just trying to get people to feel good about themselves.
或是为了让人们自我感觉良好。
Along the way, it seems to me that the Second World War has been turned into a little bit of a cartoon,
发展到现在，我觉得二战好像变成了一部卡通片，
where everybody knows who the good guys were, and everybody knows who the bad guys were.
人人都知道谁是好人，谁是坏人。
There is precious little space left anymore for any of that difficult grey area in between.
中间那小小的珍贵的灰色地带已经基本不存在了。
To give you some kind of an idea about what on earth it is I am going on about,
为了让你们了解到我指的到底是什么，
let me tell you a story from my own country, from Britain.
我来讲一个关于我的国家的故事，英国。
In Britain, we like to think we are the real heroes of the Second World War.
我们英国人喜欢把自己当作二战中真正的英雄。
We tell stories about how we stood alone against the Nazis, about how we endured the bombing of the Blitz;
我们讲我们是怎样独自面对纳粹，我们怎样遭受闪电战的轰炸，
how we kept calm and carried on, and eventually fought our way back into Europe and liberated it.
我们怎样保持冷静，继续前行，最终我们成功反击，解放欧洲。
We still call the Second World War "Our Finest Hour", as if it is some kind of golden age in our history.
我们还把二战称作我们的辉煌时刻，仿佛这是我们历史中的黄金时代。
So whenever there is any kind of anniversary, or important event based around the Second World War, we Brits really go for it.
所以无论何时有二战的纪念日或是重要事件，我们英国人都会去。
One of these events happened quite recently, in the summer of 2012,
其中一件发生的比较频繁，2012年夏天，
when we opened up a brand new war memorial right in the middle of central London.
我们在伦敦中心开了一家新的战争纪念馆。
It was a memorial to the men of Bomber Command,
它是为了纪念二战中的轰炸机编队，
the men who flew the planes over Germany, dropped bombs and so on. This is what it looks like.
当时他们开着飞机飞到德国上方，丢下了炸弹。它长这样。
As you can see, it's not exactly a shy and retiring piece of architecture, it's actually quite huge.
你们可以看到，它其实是个不小的建筑，反而体型很大。
It's by far the largest war memorial that we have in London,
这是迄今为止伦敦最大的战争纪念馆，
and I can tell you there are a lot of war memorials in London.
而伦敦有很多战争纪念馆。
As you walk into this thing,
当你走进纪念馆时，
there is an inscription which tells you that it's dedicated to the 55,000 men of Bomber Command who lost their lives during World War II.
会有一串铭文告诉你它是为了纪念55000名二战时在轰炸中死去的军人。
Now, when this first opened, in the summer of 2012,
刚开门的时候，是在2012年夏天，
I went along to have a look, see what I thought of it, have a walk around.
我独自去看了看，走了一圈。
There is something really quite moving about it actually.
里面有些东西确实很打动我。
You step in through these great big pillars,
你走过这些巨大的柱子，
and, up on the wall, you can see carved into the stone, there is a quotation from Winston Churchill
墙上你可以看见石头上篆刻的温斯顿·丘吉尔的话，
saying exactly how much we owe to these men who lost their lives.
他说我们亏欠这些失去生命的人良多。
Parts of the memorial are built out of an actual World War II aircraft that was shot down during the war.
纪念馆的一部分的造型是根据二战时被击落的一架飞机设计的。
So they put a lot of thought into this. It's actually really quite inspiring.
他们在设计的时候确实很用心。这些设计其实很打动人。
So as I was walking around this monument, I couldn't help but feel this real surge of pride.
走过这座纪念碑的时候，我情不自禁的胸中涌起了一种自豪感。
I felt proud of these men who had given their lives for something that I hold dear.
那些人为我珍视的东西付出了生命，我感到自豪。
I felt proud of my country, I felt proud of the British way of life which had produced heroes like this.
我为我的国家自豪，我为英国培养出这样的英雄而自豪。
And yet, there was this little voice in the back of my head which just wouldn't go away
然而我脑海中总有一个小小的声音挥之不去，
because I know that 55,000 men of Bomber Command died during World War II,
因为我知道有55000名英国士兵死在二战的轰炸中，
but I also know that 500,000 Germans died beneath the bombs that these men dropped.
我还知道有500000德国人死于这些人丢下的炸弹。
A lot of those Germans were Nazis, and I dare say that a lot of them probably deserved it.
很多德国人是纳粹，我敢说这是这里面很多人应得的后果。
But the vast majority of these people were just ordinary men, women and children, just like you and me.
但这其中大部分人只是普通人，妇女，还有孩子，就像你们和我一样。
Are any of these people at all mentioned on this memorial? Of course they are not.
这些人有在纪念馆中被提起吗？当然没有。
If you would suggest such a thing in the summer of 2012, you probably would have been lynched.
如果你在2012年的夏天提这样的建议，你会被绞死的。
The Germans were our enemies during the Second World War.
二战中德国是我们的敌人。
You can't mention the Germans on a British national monument.
你当然不能在英国人的纪念馆中提德国人。
And yet not to mention them, to pretend that somehow this didn't happen,
除了不要提他们，还要假装这些事没有发生，
or even worse, that somehow it doesn't matter, that too makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable.
甚至这些都没什么大不了，这让我有点不舒服。
Okay, the Germans are a difficult problem,
好吧，德国人是个难题，
so let's just put them to one side for a minute, and let's think instead about the other nationalities.
让我们先把他们放到一边，想想别的国家。
And here is where the story starts getting interesting.
这就很有趣了。
Because if there is one thing that we Brits always forget about the bomber war,
因为英国人总是忘记，
it's the fact that we didn't only bomb Germany.
我们不止轰炸了德国。
More than a third of British and American bombs dropped on Europe during the war were dropped not on Germany
二战中超过三分之一的英国和美国的丢在欧洲大陆上的炸弹，不是丢在了德国，
but on those countries we were supposed to be liberating.
而是丢在了那些我们本该去解放的国土上。
As a consequence, 50,000 French civilians were killed by our bombs.
后果是，50000法国平民死于我们的炸弹。
10,000 Dutch civilians were killed by our bombs.
10000德国平民死于我们的炸弹。
Are any of these people mentioned on this memorial? Of course they're not.
这些人在纪念馆中有被提起吗？当然没有。

And it was while I was thinking about that particular group, that it finally dawned on me
就在我想起这个特殊的群体时，我终于明白，
actually something I probably should have realized right from the start
也许我在最开始就应该明白，
which is that memorials like this aren't designed to tell the whole story;
这样的纪念馆本来就不是用来讲述完整的故事的，
they are only designed to tell those parts of the story that make British people feel good about themselves.
她们只是用来讲述其中的部分故事，好让英国人觉得骄傲。
That's all very well and good, but it does come at a cost.
这很好，但是有一个后果。
And I couldn't help thinking when I was walking around this thing:
我一边看一边不禁想起：
This was the summer of 2012, this was the summer when the Olympic Games was coming to London.
这是2012年的夏天，今年的奥运会会在伦敦举办。
So at exactly the moment when the entire world was arriving in our city,
全世界人民都会来到伦敦，
the message that we were advertising was that we will remember our wartime dead, but we won't remember yours.
而我们宣传的是我们会记住我们战时的伤痛，但不会记得你们的。
It's like the exact opposite of the Olympic spirit.
这跟奥林匹克精神截然相反。
It's not only the British who do this, of course it's not.
不仅仅是英国人在这样做，当然不止。
Every nation does it, the Americans, for example.
每个国家都在这样做，比如美国。
The Americans like to call their wartime veterans "the greatest generation that any society has ever produced",
美国人喜欢说战争的老兵是最伟大的一代，
as if they have some kind of monopoly on heroism or something.
好像他们垄断了英雄主义一样。
They backed it up with a thousand Hollywood movies full of square-jawed American heroes defeating evil in the name of truth and freedom.
他们拍了一堆好莱坞电影当作证据，里面一堆方下巴的英雄以自由和真理的名义打败邪恶。
The Chinese are the same.
中国人也一样。
You know that in 2013 alone, Chinese TV companies produced over 200 TV dramatizations about the Second World War,
仅仅在2013年，中国的电视公司就拍了200多部关于二战的电视剧，
each of them telling almost an identical story.
每一部都在讲不同的故事。
Only, of course, this time, it's the Japanese who are all the evil monsters, and the Chinese who are all selfless heroes.
当然，只是这次日本人是里面的恶人，而中国人都是无私的英雄。
And, of course, I could say the same thing about the French or the Koreans or the Norwegians or the Greeks.
当然我敢说法国、韩国、挪威或希腊都一样。
We all do this. We all like to think that we were the heroes. We all like to think that we were the victims.
我们都是这么做的。我们都喜欢把自己当作英雄。我们都乐于把自己当成受害者。
But what we don't like to remember is those grey areas.
但我们不记得的是那些灰色地带。
And it's that which I find most uncomfortable about this,
这是最令我感到不适的部分，
because, as far as I am concerned, it's the grey areas that make history interesting.
因为据我所知，灰色部分才让历史变得有趣。
In a sense, all good history is about the grey areas.
从某种意义上来说，所有好的历史都是关于灰色地带的。
But a lot of people don't seem to have time for complicated stories.
但似乎很多人没有时间去看这些复杂的故事。
They don't have time for difficult and uncomfortable emotions.
他们没时间有这样令人不适的情绪。
In fact, I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that a lot of people don't really have time for history at all.
实际上，我可以很快地得出结论，很多人根本没有时间看历史。
What they really want is a myth. Now, you might ask yourselves: What does any of this matter?
他们需要的只是一个谜。你可能会问自己：这些有什么关系呢？
I mean, we all like a good story, don't we?
我们都喜欢好故事，不是吗？
If that story makes us feel good about ourselves, then so much the better.
如果这个故事能让我们觉得开心，那就是锦上添花。
It's all in the past anyway, so what does it matter?
反正这些都过去了，有什么关系呢？
But that's just the problem, isn't it? Because it's not all in the past.
但这就是问题所在，因为这些事不仅发生在过去。
And there is a dark side to all of these stories and myths that can be really damaging.
所有这些故事和谜语里面都有阴暗面，这些有强大的破坏力。
When the former Yugoslavia tore itself apart in the 1990s,
20世纪90年代前南斯拉夫分裂的时候，
it did so with World War II songs on its lips, and World War II atrocities in its heart.
二战的悲剧上演，就爆发在它的心脏地带。
When the Ukraine crisis broke out in 2014, Ukrainians and Russians accused one another of acting like Nazis.
乌克兰危机2014年爆发，乌克兰人和俄罗斯人互相指责对方的纳粹行径。
And then, of course, Hillary Clinton weighed in and started comparing Vladimir Putin to Hitler.
然后，当然，希拉里·克林顿也来插了一脚，把弗拉基米尔·普京比作希特勒。
These sorts of comparisons don't do anything to foster rational debate.
这种种类比对和平讨论没有一点帮助。
If you were in an argument with someone,
如果你跟某人在吵架，
the last thing that is going to calm things down is that you start accusing them of being a Nazi.
要想让双方冷静下来，最不应该做的就是说对方像个纳粹。
If you don't believe me, next time you're in an argument with your wife or your husband,
不相信的话，下次你跟妻子或者丈夫吵架的时候，
give it a try and see what kind of reaction you get.
可以试试看，看对方什么反应。
I can see some of you seem to have tried it.
你们有的人已经试过了是吧。
My point is that as soon as we start bringing the Second World War into any of our arguments,
我的想法是，一旦吵架的时候提到二战，
we get so sort of carried away with our own national myths that all we actually end up doing is stirring things back up again.
我们国家不同的故事就会把重点拉偏，最后就是来回拉锯。
Let me give you a couple of examples. Take this economic crisis which has rocked the world since 2008.
我举几个例子。拿2008年席卷世界的经济危机来讲。
Here we are in Athens, and you all know about the economic crisis.
我们现在在希腊，你们都知道经济危机。
All across Southern Europe, people have been suffering a real austerity,
整个南非都在实行经济紧缩政策，
and largely this has been imposed by the European Union.
这都是欧盟实施的。
But it's not always the European Union that gets the blame for this.
但该受责备的并不总是欧盟。
Quite often, as the largest and most powerful country in the union, it's Germany that gets the blame.
通常，作为欧盟中最强大的国家，德国承受了主要的骂声。
Now, how has this been portrayed in the press?
那么媒体是怎么写的呢？
Have we had a calm, rational economic debate about it?
我们平静的、理性的讨论了吗？
This is the way that the Italian press portrayed the situation in 2012: "Quarto Reich." "The Fourth Reich."
这是2012年意大利媒体的用词：Quarto Reich。The Fourth Reich。
This is the Italian way of saying that modern-day Germany is no better than the Nazis,
意大利人说现在的德国没比纳粹时期好多少，
as if there is a direct link between World War II and today. And take a look at that picture.
仿佛二战和现在有什么直接联系似的。看看这张图。
They've managed to dig something out that makes it look like Angela Merkel is making a Nazi salute.
他们想挖点什么料出来，让安格拉·默克尔看起来像是在行纳粹的军礼。
How about the Greek press? How have the Greeks portrayed it? Well, here is a Greek newspaper.
那么希腊媒体呢？希腊人是如何描述的呢？这有一张希腊报纸。
From the same year, 2012, and you will notice a photograph of Angela Merkel once again, this time in a Nazi uniform.
同一年，2012年，我们又看到了一张安格拉·默克尔的照片，这次她穿了纳粹的军服。
Obviously, it has been photoshopped. But what about that headline in red? "Memorandum macht frei."
很明显这个是P的。标红的头条写的什么？Memorandum macht frei。
This is a direct reference to the motto that was written above the gates of the concentration camps in places like Auschwitz and Dachau.
这直接是指奥斯维辛或者达豪集中营大门上才会写的标语了。
The implication here is that the whole of Greece is going to become like one giant German concentration camp
它在暗示希腊就像一个巨大的德国集中营，
as a consequence of the economic deal they've had to do.
在现在的经济情况下，他们不得不这么做。
Now, this is the sort of thing that makes an historian like me want to just give up and go and become a window cleaner or something.
这些事真的让我这样的历史学家想撂挑子去擦玻璃去。
I mean, it's historical nonsense. None of these headlines have anything to do with the Second World War at all.
从历史角度来说，这简直是瞎扯。这些标语跟二战一分钱关系都没有。
They are about a modern-day problem, a modern situation.
他们说的是当代的问题。
The only reason to mention the Second World War is to provoke an emotional response.
提到二战的唯一目的是引起情感共鸣。
If I have one message that I want you to take away with you today, it is this:
我今天想让你们记住的一件事是：
Whenever you hear a politician, or a journalist, or a diplomat, mention the Second World War, I want alarm bells to ring.
无论何时，如果你听到一个政客、记者或是外交官提到二战，你脑子里应该敲响警钟。
Because when public figures speak about the Second World War,
因为当公众人物说起二战时，
they are not talking about what actually happened, they're invoking a myth.
他们不是要说二战时发生了什么，他们只是在引起共鸣。
So whenever you hear a politician mention the war, I want you to ask yourselves what it is he is really trying to do.
所以无论何时你听到政治家聊起战争，我希望你问问自己他到底想干什么。
Is he trying to inspire you? In which case that is relatively harmless.
他是在试图激励你吗？这相对来说没什么坏处。
Or is he trying to fill you with fear? Is he trying to draw people together?
他试图让你害怕吗？他试图把人民连系在一起吗？
In which case, again, that is relatively harmless. Or is he really trying to drive people apart?
这也没什么坏处。或者他想把人民分离吗？
And above all, I want you to remind yourselves,
无论如何，我希望你们提醒自己，
and to remind everybody you know, that the Second World War is over.
提醒你们认识的任何人，二战已经结束了。
We live in a different world, with different values and different problems.
我们生活在一个完全不同的世界，有完全不同的价值观，面对着完全不同的问题。
These problems will never be solved, and they certainly will never be solved peacefully,
这些问题永远无法解决，永远无法和平解决。
if all we can think to do is to resurrect the Second World War.
如果我们面对问题时不停地提起二战。
You know, history is a messy business, particularly the history of the Second World War.
要知道，历史是一门复杂的学科，特别是二战相关的历史。
It's not there to make us feel good about ourselves; it's often ugly and uncomfortable, and desperately complicated.
它存在不是为了让我们自己感觉良好，它通常是丑陋的，令人不适的，极其复杂的。
It's full of those grey areas.
它充满了灰色地带。
If we could all just learn to accept that, then this world, our world, would be a much more peaceful place. Thank you.
如果我们了解这一点，那么这个世界，我们的世界，将会和平的多。谢谢大家。