BOB SCHIEFFER of CBS: Good evening from the campus of Lynn University here in Boca Raton, Florida. This is the fourth and last debate of the 2012 campaign, brought to you by the Commission on Presidential Debates. This one's on foreign policy. I'm Bob Schieffer of CBS News. The questions are mine, and I have not shared them with the candidates or their aides.

The audience has taken a vow of silence—no applause, no reaction of any kind except right now when we welcome President Barack Obama and Governor Mitt Romney. (Sustained cheers, applause.) Gentlemen, your campaigns have agreed to certain rules and they are simple. They have asked me to divide the evening into segments. I'll pose a question at the beginning of each segment. You will each have two minutes to respond, and then we will have a general discussion until we move to the next segment.

Tonight's debate, as both of your know, comes on the 50th anniversary of the night that President Kennedy told the world that the Soviet Union had installed nuclear missiles in Cuba—perhaps the closest we've ever come to nuclear war. And it is a sobering reminder that every president faces at some point an unexpected threat to our national security from abroad. So let's begin.

The first segment is the challenge of a changing Middle East and the new face of terrorism. I'm going to put this into two segments, so you'll have two topic questions within this one segment on that subject. The first question, and it concerns Libya, the controversy over what happened there continues. Four Americans are dead, including an American ambassador. Questions remain. What happened? What caused it? Was it spontaneous?

Was it an intelligence failure? Was it a policy failure? Was there an attempt to mislead people about what really happened?

Governor Romney, you said this was an example of an American policy in the Middle East that is unraveling before our very eyes. I'd like to hear each of you give your thoughts on that.

Governor Romney, you won the toss. You go first.

MITT ROMNEY: Thank you, Bob, and thank you for agreeing to moderate this debate this evening. Thank you to Lynn University for welcoming us here, and Mr. President, it's good to be with you again. We were together at a humorous event a little earlier, and it's nice to maybe be funny this time not on purpose. We'll see what happens. (Laughter.)

This is obviously an area of great concern to the entire world and to America in particular, which is to see a—a complete change in the—the—the structure and the—the environment in the Middle East. With the Arab Spring came a great deal of hope that there would be a change towards more moderation and opportunity for greater participation on the part of women and—and public life and in economic life in the Middle East. But instead we've seen in nation after nation a number of disturbing events. Of course, we see in Syria 30,000 civilians having been killed by the military there. We see in—in—in Libya an attack apparently by—well, I think we know now by terrorists of some kind against—against our people there, four people dead. Our hearts and minds go to them. Mali has been taken over, the northern part of Mali, by al-Qaida-type individuals. We have in—in Egypt a Muslim Brotherhood president.

And so what we're seeing is a—a—a pretty dramatic reversal in the kind of hopes we had for that region. Of course, the greatest threat of all is Iran, four years closer to a nuclear weapon. And—and we're going to have to recognize that we have to do as the president has done. I congratulate him on—on taking out Osama bin Laden and going after the leadership in al-Qaida. But we can't kill our way out of this mess. We're—we're going to have to put in place a very comprehensive and robust strategy to help the—the world of Islam and—and other parts of the world reject this radical violent extremism which is—it's really not on the run. It's certainly not hiding. This is a group that is now involved in 10 or 12 countries, and it presents an enormous threat to our friends, to the world, to America long term, and we must have a comprehensive strategy to help reject this kind of extremism.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, my first job as commander in chief, Bob, is to keep the American people safe, and that's what we've done over the last four years. We ended the war in Iraq, refocused our attention on those who actually killed us on 9/11. And as a consequence, al-Qaida's core leadership has been decimated.

In addition, we're now able to transition out of Afghanistan in a responsible way, making sure that Afghans take responsibility for their own security, and that allows us also to rebuild alliances and make friends around the world to combat future threats. Now, with respect to Libya, as I indicated in the last debate, when we received that phone call, I immediately made sure that, number one, we did everything we could to secure those Americans who were still in harm's way; number two, that we would investigate exactly what happened; and number three, most importantly, that we would go after those who killed Americans, and we would bring them to justice, and that's exactly what we're going to do.

But I think it's important to step back and think about what happened in Libya. Now, keep in mind that I and Americans took leadership in organizing an international coalition that made sure that we were able to—without putting troops on the ground, at the cost of less than what we spent in two weeks in Iraq—liberate a country that had been under the yoke of dictatorship for 40 years, got rid of a despot who had killed Americans.

And as a consequence, despite this tragedy, you had tens of thousands of Libyans after the events in Benghazi marching and saying, America's our friend. We stand with them. Now that represents the opportunity we have to take advantage of. And you know, Governor Romney, I'm glad that you agree that we have been successful in going after al-Qaida, but I have to tell you that, you know, your strategy previously has been one that has been all over the map and is not designed to keep Americans safe or to build on the opportunities that exist in the Middle East.

MR. ROMNEY: Well, my strategy's pretty straightforward, which is to go after the bad guys, to make sure we do our very best to interrupt them, to— to kill them, to take them out of the picture. But my strategy is broader than— than that. That's— that's important, of course, but the key that we're going to have to pursue is a— is a pathway to— to get the Muslim world to be able to reject extremism on its own. We don't want another Iraq. We don't want another Afghanistan. That's not the right course for us. The right course for us is to make sure that we go after the— the people who are leaders of these various anti-American groups and these— these jihadists, but also help the Muslim world.

And how we do that? A group of Arab scholars came together, organized by the U.N., to look at how we can help the— the world reject these— these terrorists. And the answer they came up was this.

One, more economic development. We should key our foreign aid, our direct foreign investment and that of our friends— we should coordinate it to make sure that we— we push back and give them more economic development.

Number two, better education.

Number three, gender equality.

Number four, the rule of law. We have to help these nations create civil societies.

But what's been happening over the last couple years as we watched this tumult in the Middle East, this rising tide of chaos occur, you see al-Qaida rushing in, you see other jihadist groups rushing in.

And— and they're throughout many nations of the Middle East.

It's wonderful that Libya seems to be making some progress, despite this terrible tragedy, but next door, of course, we have Egypt. Libya's 6 million population, Egypt 80 million population. We want— we want to make sure that we're seeing progress throughout the Middle East. With Mali now having North Mali taken over by al-Qaida, with Syria having Assad continuing to— or to kill— to murder his own people, this is a region in tumult. And of course Iran on the path to a nuclear weapon. We've got real gaps in the region.

MR. SCHIEFFER: We'll get to that, but let's give the president a chance.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Governor Romney, I'm glad that you recognize that al-Qaida's a threat because a few months ago when you were asked, what's the biggest geopolitical threat facing America, you said Russia— not al-Qaida, you said Russia. And the 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because, you know, the Cold War's been over for 20 years.

But, Governor, when it comes to our foreign policy, you seem to want to import the foreign policies of the 1980s, just like the social policies of the 1950s and the economic policies of the 1920s. You say that you're not interested in duplicating what happened in Iraq, but just a few weeks ago you said you think we should have more troops in Iraq right now.

And the— the challenge we have— I know you haven't been in a position to actually execute foreign policy, but every time you've offered an opinion, you've been wrong. You said we should have gone into Iraq despite the fact that there were no weapons of mass destruction. You said that we should still have troops in Iraq to this day. You indicated that we shouldn't be passing nuclear treaties with Russia, despite the fact that 71 senators, Democrats and Republicans, voted for it.

You've said that first we should not have a timeline in Afghanistan then you said we should. Now you say maybe or it depends, which means not only were you wrong but you were also confusing and sending mixed messages both to our troops and our allies.

So what— what we need to do with respect to the Middle East is strong, steady leadership, not wrong and reckless leadership that is all over the map. And unfortunately, that's the kind of opinions that you've offered throughout this campaign, and it is not a recipe for American strength or keeping America safe over the long term.

MR. SCHIEFFER: I'm going to add a couple of minutes here to give you a chance to respond.

MR. ROMNEY: Well, of course I don't concur with what the president said about my own record and the things that I've said. They don't happen to be accurate. But— but I can say this: that we're talking about the Middle East and how to help the Middle East reject the kind of terrorism we're seeing and the rising tide of tumult and— and confusion. And— and attacking me is not an agenda. Attacking me is not talking about how we're going to deal with the challenges that exist in the Middle East and take advantage of the opportunity there and stem the tide of this violence. But I'll respond to a couple of the things you mentioned. First of all, Russia, I indicated, is a geopolitical foe, not—

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Number one—

MR. ROMNEY: Excuse me. It's a geopolitical foe. And I said in the same— in the same paragraph, I said, and Iran is the greatest national security threat we face. Russia does continue to battle us in the U.N. time and time again. I have clear eyes on this. I'm not going to wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to Russia or Mr. Putin, and I'm certainly not going to say to him, I'll give you more flexibility after the election. After the election he'll get more backbone.

Number two, with regards to Iraq, you and I agreed, I believe, that there should have been a status of forces agreement. Did you— PRESIDENT OBAMA: That's not true.

MR. ROMNEY: Oh, you didn't— you didn't want a status of forces agreement?

PRESIDENT OBAMA: No, but what I— what I would not have done is left 10,000 troops in Iraq that would tie us down. That certainly would not help us in the Middle East.

MR. ROMNEY: I'm sorry, you actually— there was a—

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Here— here is— here is—

MR. ROMNEY: There was an effort on the part of the president to have a status of forces agreement. And I concurred in that and said we should have some number of troops that stayed on. That was something I concurred with.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Governor—

MR. ROMNEY: That was your posture. That was my posture as well.

I thought it should have been 5,000 troops.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Governor—

MR. ROMNEY: I thought it should have been more troops. But you— (inaudible).

PRESIDENT OBAMA: This is just a few weeks ago.

MR. ROMNEY: The answer was, we got no troop (through ?) whatsoever.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: This is just a few weeks ago that you indicated that we should still have troops in Iraq.

MR. ROMNEY: No, I didn't. I'm sorry, that's—

PRESIDENT OBAMA: You made a major speech.

MR. ROMNEY: I indicated— I indicated that you failed to put in place a status of forces agreement at the end of the conflict that—

MR. SCHIEFFER: Governor—

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Governor, here's— here's one thing— here's one thing— here's one thing I've learned as commander in chief.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Let him have— (inaudible).

PRESIDENT OBAMA: You've got to be clear, both to our allies and our enemies, about where you stand and what you mean. Now, you just gave a speech a few weeks ago in which you said we should still have troops in Iraq. That is not a recipe for making sure that we are taking advantage of the opportunities and meeting the challenges of the Middle East.

Now, it is absolutely true that we cannot just beat these challenges militarily, and so what I've done throughout my presidency and will continue to do, is, number one, make sure that these countries are supporting our counterterrorism efforts; number two, make sure that they are standing by our interests in Israel's security, because it is a true friend and our greatest ally in the region. Number three, we do have to make sure that we're protecting religious minorities and women because these countries can't develop unless all the population— not just half of it— is developing. Number four, we do have to develop their economic— their economic capabilities. But number five, the other thing that we have to do is recognize that we can't continue to do nation building in these regions. Part of American leadership is making sure that we're doing nation building here at home. That will help us maintain the kind of American leadership that we need.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Let me interject the second topic question in this segment about the Middle East and so on, and that is, you both mentioned— alluded to this, and that is Syria. The war in Syria has now spilled over into Lebanon. We have, what, more than a hundred people that were killed there in a bomb. There were demonstrations there, eight people dead.

Mr. President, it's been more than a year since you saw— you told Assad he had to go. Since then 30,000 Syrians have died. We've had 300,000 refugees. The war goes on. He's still there. Should we reassess our policy and see if we can find a better way to influence events there, or is that even possible? And it's you— you go first, sir.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: What we've done is organize the international community, saying Assad has to go. We've mobilized sanctions against that government. We have made sure that they are isolated. We have provided humanitarian assistance, and we are helping the opposition organize, and we're particularly interested in making sure that we're mobilizing the moderate forces inside of Syria. But ultimately, Syrians are going to have to determine their own future. And so everything we're doing, we're doing in consultation with our partners in the region, including Israel, which obviously has a huge interest in seeing what happens in Syria, coordinating with Turkey and other countries in the region that have a great interest in this.

Now, this— what we're seeing taking place in Syria is heartbreaking, and that's why we are going to do everything we can to make sure that we are helping the opposition. But we also have to recognize that, you know, for us to get more entangled militarily in Syria is a serious step. And we have to do so making absolutely certain that we know who we are helping, that we're not putting arms in the hands of folks who eventually could turn them against us or our allies in the region.

And I am confident that Assad's days are numbered. But what we can't do is to simply suggest that, as Governor Romney at times has suggested, that giving heavy weapons, for example, to the Syrian opposition is a simple proposition that would lead us to be safer over the long term.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Governor.

MR. ROMNEY: Well, let's step back and talk about what's happening in Syria and how important it is. First of all, 30,000 people being killed by their government is a humanitarian disaster.

Secondly, Syria's an opportunity for us because Syria plays an important role in the Middle East, particularly right now. Syria is Iran's only ally in the Arab world. It's their route to the sea. It's the route for them to arm Hezbollah in Lebanon, which threatens, of course, our ally Israel. And so seeing Syria remove Assad is a very high priority for us. Number two, seeing a— a replacement government being responsible people is critical for us. And finally, we don't want to have military involvement there. We don't want to get drawn into a military conflict.

And so the right course for us is working through our partners and with our own resources to identify responsible parties within Syria, organize them, bring them together in a— in a form of— of— if not government, a form of— of council that can take the lead in Syria, and then make sure they have the arms necessary to defend themselves. We do need to make sure that they don't have arms that get into the— the wrong hands. Those arms could be used to hurt us down the road. We need to make sure as well that we coordinate this effort with our allies and particularly with— with— with Israel. But the Saudis and the Qatari and— and— and the Turks are all very concerned about this. They're willing to work with us. We need to have a very effective leadership effort in Syria, making sure that the— the— the insurgents there are armed and that the insurgents that become armed are people who will be the responsible parties.

Recognize I believe that Assad must go. I believe he will go. But I believe we want to make sure that we have the relationships of friendship with the people that take his place such that in the years to come we see Syria as a— as a friend and Syria as a responsible party in the Middle East. This— this is a critical opportunity for America.

And what I'm afraid of is that we've watched over the past year or so first the president saying, well, we'll let the U.N. deal with it, and Assad— excuse me, Kofi Annan came in and— and said, we're going to try— have a cease-fire.

That didn't work. Then it looked to the Russians and said, see if you can do something. we should. We should be playing the leadership role there, not on the ground with military—

MR. SCHIEFFER: All right.

MR. ROMNEY:— by the leadership role.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: We are— we playing the leadership role. We organized the "Friends of Syria." We are mobilizing humanitarian support and support for the opposition. And we are making sure that that those we help are those who will be friends of ours in the long term and friends of our allies in the region over the long term.

But you know, going back to Libya, because this is an example of— of how we make choices, you know, when we went into Libya and we were able to immediately stop the massacre there because of the unique circumstances and the coalition that we had helped to organize, we also had to make sure that Moammar Gadhafi didn't stay there. And to the governor's credit, you supported us going into Libya and the coalition that we organized. But when it came time to making sure that Gadhafi did not stay in power, that he was captured, Governor, your suggestion was that this was mission creep, that this was mission muddle.

Imagine if we had pulled out at that point. That— Moammar Gadhafi had more American blood on his hands than any individual other than Osama bin Laden. And so we were going to make sure that we finished the job. That's part of the reason why the Libyans stand with us. But we did so in a careful, thoughtful way, making certain that we knew who we were dealing with, that those forces of moderation on the ground were ones that we could work with. And we have to take the same kind of steady, thoughtful leadership when it comes to Syria. That's exactly what we're doing.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Governor, can I just ask you, would you go beyond what the administration would do? Like, for example, would you put in no-fly zones over Syria?

MR. ROMNEY: I don't— I don't want to have our military involved in— in Syria. I don't think there's a necessity to put our military in Syria at— at this stage.

I don't anticipate that in the future.

As I indicated, our objectives are to replace Assad and to have in place a new government which is friendly to us— a responsible government, if possible. And I want to make sure the get armed and they have the arms necessary to defend themselves but also to remove— to remove Assad. But I do not want to see a military involvement on the part of— of our— of our troops.

And this isn't— this isn't going to be necessary. We have— with our partners in the region, we have sufficient resources to support those groups. But look, this has been going on for a year. This is a time— this should have been a time for American leadership. We should have taken a leading role— not militarily, but a leading role organizationally, governmentally, to bring together the parties there to find responsible parties.

As you hear from intelligence sources even today, the insurgents are highly disparate. They haven't come together. They haven't formed a unity group, a council of some kind. That needs to happen. America can help that happen. And we need to make sure they have the arms they need to carry out the very important role, which is getting rid of Assad.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Could we get a quick response, Mr. President, because I want to ask—

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, I'll— I'll— I'll be— I'll be very quick. What you just heard Governor Romney said is he doesn't have different ideas, and that's because we're doing exactly what we should be doing to try to promote a moderate, Syrian leadership and a— an effective transition so that we get Assad out. That's the kind of leadership we've shown. That's the kind of leadership we'll continue to show.

MR. SCHIEFFER: May I ask you, you know, during the Egyptian turmoil, there came a point when you said it was time for President Mubarak to go.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Right.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Some in your administration thought perhaps we should have waited a while on that. Do you have any regrets about that?

PRESIDENT OBAMA: No, I don't because I think that America has to stand with democracy. The notion that we would have tanks run over those young people who were in Tahrir Square, that is not the kind of American leadership that John F. Kennedy talked about 50 years ago.

But what I've also said is that now that you have a democratically elected government in Egypt, that they have to make sure that they take responsibility for protecting religious minorities—and we have put significant pressure on them to make sure they're doing that—to recognize the rights of women, which is critical throughout the region. These countries can't develop if young women are not given the kind of education that they need.

They have to abide by their treaty with Israel. That is a red line for us, because not only is Israel's security at stake, but our security is at stake if that unravels.

They have to make sure that they're cooperating with us when it comes to counterterrorism. And we will help them with respect to developing their own economy, because ultimately, what's going to make the Egyptian revolution successful for the people of Egypt but also for the world is if those young people who gathered there are seeing opportunities. Their aspirations are similar to young people's here. They want jobs. They want to be able to make sure their kids are going to a good school. They want to make sure that they have a roof over their heads and that they have a—the prospects of a better life in the future.

And so one of the things that we've been doing is—is, for example, organizing entrepreneurship conferences with these Egyptians to—to give them a sense of how they can start rebuilding their economy in a way that's noncorrupt, that's transparent.

But what is also important for us to understand is—is that for America to be successful in this region, there are some things that we're going to have to do here at home as well. You know, one of the challenges over the last decade is we've done experiments in nation building in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. And we've neglected, for example, developing our own economy, our own energy sectors, our own education system. And it's very hard for us to project leadership around the world when we're not doing what we need to do here.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Governor Romney, I want to hear your response to that, but I would just ask you, would you have stuck with Mubarak?

MR. ROMNEY: No, I believe, as the president indicated and said at the time, that I supported his—his action there. I felt that—I wish we'd have had a better vision of the future. I wish that, looking back at the beginning of the president's term and even further back than that, that we'd have recognized that there was a growing energy and passion for freedom in that part of the world and that we would have worked more aggressively with our—our friend and with other friends in the region to have them make the transition towards a more representative form of government such that it didn't explode in the way it did. But once it exploded, I felt the same as the president did, which is these—these freedom voices in the—the streets of Egypt where the people who were speaking of our principles and the—the—President Mubarak had done things which were unimaginable, and the idea of him crushing his people was not something that we could possibly support.

Let me—let me step back and talk about what I think our mission has to be in the Middle East, and even more broadly, because our purpose is to make sure the world is more—is peaceful. We want a peaceful planet. We want people to be able to enjoy their lives and know they're going to have a bright and prosperous future and not be at war. That's our purpose. And the mantle of—of leadership for promoting the principles of peace has fallen to America. We didn't ask for it, but it's an honor that we have it.

But for us to be able to promote those principles of peace requires us to be strong, and that begins with a strong economy here at home, and unfortunately, the economy is not stronger. When the—when the—the president of Iraq—excuse me—of Iran, Ahmadinejad, says that our debt makes us not a great country, that's a frightening thing. The former chief of—chief of the Joints Chief of Staff said that—Admiral Mullen—said that our debt is the biggest national security threat we face. This—we have weakened our economy.

We need a strong economy. We need to have as well a strong military. Our military is second to none in the world. We're blessed with terrific soldiers and extraordinary technology and intelligence. But the idea of a trillion dollars in cuts through sequestration and budget cuts to the military would change that.

We need to have strong allies. Our association and—and connection with our allies is essential to America's strength. We're the—the great nation that has allies, 42 allies and friends around the world.

And finally, we have to stand by our principles. And if we're strong in each of those things, American influence will grow. But unfortunately, in nowhere in the world is America's influence greater today than it was four years ago.

MR. SCHIEFFER: All right.

MR. ROMNEY: And that's because we've become weaker on each of those four dimensions.

MR. SCHIEFFER: All right—perfect. You're going to get a chance to respond to that because that's a perfect segue into our next segment, and that is what is America's role in the world. And that is the question. What do each of you see as our role in the world?

And I believe, Governor Romney, it's your turn to go first.

MR. ROMNEY: Well, I—I absolutely believe that America has a—a responsibility and the privilege of helping defend freedom and promote the principles that—that make the world more peaceful. And those principles include human rights, human dignity, free enterprise, freedom of expression, elections, because when there are elections, people tend to vote for peace. They don't vote for war. So we want to—to promote those principles around the world. We recognize that there are places of conflict in the world. We want to end those conflicts to the extent humanly possible. But in order to be able to fulfill our role in the world, America must be strong. America must lead.

And for that to happen, we have to strengthen our economy here at home. You can't have 23 million people struggling to get a job. You—you can't have an economy that over the last three years keeps slowing down its growth rate. You can't have kids coming out of college, half of whom can't find a job today, or a job that's commensurate with their college degree. We have to get our economy going.

And our military—we've got to strengthen our military long- term. We don't know what the world is going to throw at us down the road. We—we make decisions today in a military that—that will confront challenges we can't imagine.

In the 2000 debates there was no mention of terrorism, for instance. And a year later, 9/11 happened. So we have to make decisions based upon uncertainty. And that means a strong military. I will not cut our military budget.

We have to also stand by our allies. I think the tension that existed between Israel and the United States was very unfortunate. I think also that pulling our missile defense program out of Poland in the way we was also unfortunate in terms of, if you will, disrupting the relationship in some ways that existed between us.

And then of course, with regards to standing for our principles, when—when the students took to the streets in Tehran and the people there protested, the Green Revolution occurred. For the president to be silent I thought was an enormous mistake. We have to stand for our principles, stand for our allies, stand for a strong military and stand for a stronger economy.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: America remains the one indispensable nation. And the world needs a strong America. And it is stronger now then when I came into office. Because we ended the war in Iraq, we were able to refocus our attention on not only the terrorist threat but also beginning a transition process in Afghanistan. It also allowed us to refocus on alliances and relationships that had been neglected for a decade.

And, Governor Romney, our alliances have never been stronger. In Asia, in Europe, in Africa, with Israel where we have unprecedented military and intelligence cooperation, including dealing with the Iranian threat. But what we also have been able to do is position ourselves so we can start rebuilding America.

And that's what my plan does: Making sure that we're bringing manufacturing back to our shores so that we're creating jobs here, as we've done with the auto industry, not rewarding companies that are shipping jobs overseas; making sure that we've got the best education system in the world, including retraining our workers for the jobs of tomorrow; doing everything we can to control our energy.

We've cut our oil imports to the lowest level in two decades because we've developed oil and natural gas, but we also have to develop clean energy technologies that will allow us to cut our exports in half by 2020. That's the kind of leadership that we need to show.

And we've got to make sure that we reduce our deficit. Unfortunately, Governor Romney's plan doesn't do it. We've got to do it in a responsible way, by cutting out spending we don't need but also asking the wealthiest to pay a little bit more. That way we can invest in the research and technology that's always kept us at the cutting edge.

Now Governor Romney has taken a different approach throughout this campaign. You know, both at home and abroad, he has proposed wrong and reckless policies. He's praised George Bush as good economic steward and Dick Cheney as somebody who shows great wisdom and judgment. And taking us back to those kinds of strategies that got us into this mess are not the way that we are going to maintain leadership in the 21st century.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Governor Romney, wrong and reckless policies?

MR. ROMNEY: (Chuckles.) I've got a policy for the future and agenda for the future. And when it comes to our economy here at home, I know what it takes to create 12 million new jobs and rising take- home pay. And what we've seen over the last four years is something I don't want to see over the next four years. The—the president said by now we'd be at 5.4 percent unemployment. We're 9 million jobs short of that. I will get America working again and see rising take- home pay again. And I'll do it with five simple steps.

Number one, were going to have North American energy independence. We're going to do it by taking full advantage of oil, coal, gas, nuclear and our renewables.

Number two, we're going to increase our trade. Trade grows about 12 percent per year. It doubles about every—every five or—or so years. We can do better than that, particularly in Latin America. The opportunities for us in Latin America we have just not taken advantage of fully.

As a matter of fact, Latin America's economy is almost as big as the economy of China. We're all focused on China. Latin America is a huge opportunity for us: time zone, language opportunities.

Number three, we're going to have to have training programs that work for our workers and schools that finally put the parents and the teachers and the kids first, and the teachers union's going to have to go behind.

And then we're going to have to get to a balanced budget. We can't expect entrepreneurs and businesses large and small to take their life savings or their companies' money and invest in America if they think we're headed to the road to Greece. And that's where we're going right now unless we finally get off this spending and borrowing binge. And I'll get us on track to a balanced budget.

And finally, number five, we've got to champion small business. Small business is where—where jobs come from. Two-thirds of our jobs come from small businesses. New business formation is down to the lowest level in 30 years under this administration. I want to bring it back and get back good jobs and rising take-home pay.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, let's talk about what we need to compete. First of all, Governor Romney talks about small businesses, but Governor, when you were in Massachusetts, small businesses' development ranked about 48, I think, out of 50 states, in Massachusetts, because the policies that you're promoting actually don't help small businesses. And the way you define small businesses include folks at the very top. They include you and me. That's not the kind of small business promotion we need.

But—but let's take an example that we know is going to make a difference 21st century, and that's our education policy. We didn't have a lot of chance to talk about this in the last debate. You know, under my leadership, what we've done is reformed education, working with governors, 46 states. We've seen progress and gains in schools that were having a terrible time, and they're starting to finally make progress. And what I now want to do is to hire more teachers, especially in math and science, because we know that we've fallen behind when it comes to math and science. And those teachers can make a difference.

Now, Governor Romney, when you were asked by teachers whether or not this would help the economy grow, you said, this isn't going to help the economy grow. When you were asked about reduced class sizes, you said class sizes don't make a difference. But I tell you, if you talk to teachers, they will tell you it does make a difference.

And if we've got math teachers who are able to provide the kind of support that they need for our kids, that's what's going to determine whether or not the new businesses are created here. Companies are going to locate here depending on whether we've got the most highly skilled workforce. And the kinds of budget proposals that you've put forward—when we don't ask either you or me to pay a dime more in terms of reducing the deficit, but instead we slash support for education, that's undermining our long-term competitiveness. That is not good for America's position in the world. And the world notices.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Let me get back to foreign policy.

MR. ROMNEY: Well—

MR. SCHIEFFER: Can I just get back—

MR. ROMNEY: Well, I need to speak a moment if you'll let me, Bob—

MR. SCHIEFFER: OK.

MR. ROMNEY:—just about education, because I'm—I'm so proud of the state that I had the chance to be governor of. We have, every two years, tests that look at how well our kids are doing. Fourth graders and eighth graders are tested in English and math. While I was governor, I was proud that our fourth graders came out number one of all 50 states in English and then also in math, and our eighth graders number one in English and also in math—first time one state had been number one in all four measures. How did we do that?

Well, Republicans and Democrats came together on a bipartisan basis to put in place education that focused on having great teachers in the classroom. And that was—

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Ten years earlier—

MR. ROMNEY: That was—that was what allowed us to become the number one state in the nation. And this is—and we were—

PRESIDENT OBAMA: But that was 10 years before you took office.

MR. ROMNEY: And we—absolutely.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Gentlemen—

PRESIDENT OBAMA: And then you cut education spending when you came into office.

MR. ROMNEY: The first—the first—and we kept our schools number one in the nation. They're still number one today. And the principles that we've put in place—we also gave kids not just a graduation exam that—that determined whether they were up to the skills needed to—to be able to compete, but also, if they graduated in the top quarter of their class, they got a four-year tuition-free ride at any Massachusetts public institution of higher learning.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: That happened—that happened before you came into office.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Governor—

MR. ROMNEY: That was actually mine, actually, Mr. President.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Let me—I want to try to shift it, because we have heard some of this in the other debates. Governor, you say you want a bigger military. You want a bigger Navy. You don't want to cut defense spending. What I want to ask you, we're talking about financial problems in this country. Where are you going to get the money?

MR. ROMNEY: Well, let's—let's come back and talk about the military, but all the way—all the way through. First of all, I'm going through, from the very beginning, we're going to cut about 5 percent of the discretionary budget excluding military. That's number one. All right?

MR. SCHIEFFER: But can you do this without driving us deeper into debt?

MR. ROMNEY: The good news is, I'll be happy to have you take a look. Come on our website, you'll look at how we get to a balanced budget within eight to 10 years. We do it by getting—by reducing spending in a whole series of programs. By the way, number one I get rid of is "Obamacare." There are a number of things that sound good but, frankly, we just can't afford them. And that one doesn't sound good, and it's not affordable, so I get rid of that one from day one; to the extent humanly possible, we get that out. We take program after program that we don't absolutely have to have and we get rid of them.

Number two, we take some programs that we are going to keep, like Medicaid, which is a program for the poor. We're—take that health care program for the poor, and we give it to the states to run because states run these programs more efficiently. As a governor, I thought, please, give me this program.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Can he do that?

PRESIDENT OBAMA: (Inaudible.)

MR. ROMNEY: I can run this more efficiently than the federal government. And states, by the way, are proving it. States like Arizona, Rhode Island have taken these Medicaid dollars, have shown they can run these programs more cost effectively.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Bob—

MR. ROMNEY: So I want to do those two things that gets us—it gets us to a balanced budget with eight in—eight to 10 years. PRESIDENT OBAMA: Bob—

MR. ROMNEY: But the military—

MR. SCHIEFFER: Let—

MR. ROMNEY: Let's go back to the military, though.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Well, that's what I'm trying to find out about.

MR. ROMNEY: Let's talk about the military.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: You should have answered the first question.

Look, Governor Romney's called for $5 trillion of tax cuts that he says he's going to pay for by closing deductions.

Now, the math doesn't work but he continues to claim that he's going to do it. He then wants to spend another $2 trillion on military spending that our military's not asking for.

Now, keep in mind that our military spending has gone up every single year that I've been in office. We spend more on our military than the next 10 countries combined—China, Russia, France, the United—United Kingdom, you name it, next 10. And what I did was work with our Joint Chiefs of Staff to think about what are we going to need in the future to make sure that we are safe? And that's the budget that we've put forward.

But what you can't do is spend $2 trillion in additional military spending that the military is not asking for, $5 trillion on tax cuts, you say that you're going to pay for it by closing loopholes and deductions without naming what those loopholes and deductions are, and then somehow you're also going to deal with the deficit that we've already got. The math simply doesn't work.

But when it comes to our military, what we have to think about is not, you know, just budgets, we got to think about capabilities. We need to be thinking about cybersecurity. We need to be thinking about space. That's exactly what our budget does, but it's driven by strategy. It's not driven by politics. It's not driven by members of Congress and what they would like to see. It's driven by what are we going to need to keep the American people safe?

That's exactly what our budget does. And it also then allows us to reduce our deficit, which is a significant national security concern because we've got to make sure that our economy is strong at home so that we can project military power overseas.

MR. ROMNEY: Bob, I'm pleased that I've balanced budgets. I was in the world of business for 25 years.

If you didn't balance your budget, you went out of business. I went to the Olympics that was out of balance, and we got it on balance and made a success there. I had the chance to be governor of a state. Four years in a row, Democrats and Republicans came together to balance the budget. We cut taxes 19 times, balanced our budget. The president hasn't balanced a budget yet. I expect to have the opportunity to do so myself.

MR. SCHIEFFER: All right.

MR. ROMNEY: I—I'm going to be able to balance the budget. Let's talk about military spending, and that's this. Our Navy—

MR. SCHIEFFER: About 30 seconds.

MR. ROMNEY: Our Navy is older—excuse me—our Navy is smaller now than any time since 1917. The Navy said they needed 313 ships to carry out their mission. We're now down to 285. We're headed down to the—to the low 200s if we go through with sequestration. That's unacceptable to me. I want to make sure that we have the ships that are required by our Navy.

Our Air Force is older and smaller than any time since it was founded in 1947. We've changed for the first time since FDR. We—since FDR we had the—we've always had the strategy of saying we could fight in two conflicts at once. Now we're changing to one conflict.

Look, this, in my view, is the highest responsibility of the president of the United States, which is to maintain the safety of the American people. And I will not cut our military budget by a trillion dollars, which is the combination of the budget cuts that the president has as well as the sequestration cuts. That, in my view, is—is—is making our future less certain and less secure. I won't do it.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Bob, I just need to comment on this. First of all, the sequester is not something that I proposed. It's something that Congress has proposed. It will not happen. The budget that we're talking about is not reducing our military spending. It's maintaining it.

But I think Governor Romney maybe hasn't spent enough time looking at how our military works. You—you mentioned the Navy, for example, and that we have fewer ships than we did in 1916. Well, Governor, we also have fewer horses and bayonets—(laughter)—because the nature of our military's changed. We have these things called aircraft carriers where planes land on them. We have these ships that go underwater, nuclear submarines.

And so the question is not a game of Battleship where we're counting ships. It's—it's what are our capabilities.

And so when I sit down with the secretary of the Navy and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, we determine how are we going to be best able to meet all of our defense needs in a way that also keeps faith with our troops, that also makes sure that our veterans have the kind of support that they need when they come home. And that is not reflected in the kind of budget that you're putting forward, because it just don't work.

MR. SCHIEFFER: All right.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: And you know, we've visited the website quite a bit. And it still doesn't work.

MR. SCHIEFFER: A lot to cover. I'd like—(murmurs)—I'd like to move to the next segment: red lines, Israel and Iran. Would either of you—and you'll have two minutes, and President Obama, you have the first go at this one. Would either of you be willing to declare that an attack on Israel is an attack on the United States, which of course is the same promise that we give to our close allies like Japan? And if you made such a declaration, would not that deter Iran? It's certainly deterred the Soviet Union for a long, long time when we made that—when we made that promise to our allies.

Mr. President

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, first of all, Israel is a true friend. It is our greatest ally in the region. And if Israel is attacked, America will stand with Israel. I've made that clear throughout my presidency. And—

MR. SCHIEFFER: So you're saying we've already made that declaration?

PRESIDENT OBAMA: I will stand with Israel if they are attacked. And this is the reason why, working with Israel, we have created the strongest military and intelligence cooperation between our two countries in history. In fact, this week we'll be carrying out the largest military exercise with Israel in history, this very week.

But to the issue of Iran, as long as I'm president of the United States, Iran will not get a nuclear weapon.

I've made that clear when I came into office. We then organized the strongest coalition and the strongest sanctions against Iran in history, and it is crippling their economy. Their currency has dropped 80 percent. Their oil production has plunged to the lowest level since they were fighting a war with Iraq 20 years ago. So their economy is in a shambles.

And the reason we did this is because a nuclear Iran is a threat to our national security and it's threat to Israel's national security. We cannot afford to have a nuclear arms race in the most volatile region of the world. Iran's a state sponsor of terrorism, and for them to be able to provide nuclear technology to nonstate actors—that's unacceptable. And they have said that they want to see Israel wiped off the map.

So the work that we've done with respect to sanctions now offers Iran a choice. They can take the diplomatic route and end their nuclear program or they will have to face a united world and a United States president, me, who said we're not going to take any options off the table.

The disagreement I have with Governor Romney is that during the course of this campaign he's often talked as if we should take premature military action. I think that would be a mistake because when I've sent young men and women into harm's way, I always understand that that is the last rest, not the first resort.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Two minutes.

MR. ROMNEY: Well, first of all, I—I want to underscore the—the same point the president made, which is that if I'm president of the United States, when I'm president of the United States, we will stand with Israel. And—and if Israel is attacked, we have their back, not just diplomatically, not just culturally, but militarily. That's number one.

Number two, with regards to—to Iran and the threat of Iran, there's no question but that a nuclear Iran, a nuclear-capable Iran, is unacceptable to America.

It presents a threat not only to our friends, but ultimately a threat to us to have Iran have nuclear material, nuclear weapons that could be used against us or used to be threatening to us.

It's also essential for us to understand what our mission is in Iran, and that is to dissuade Iran from having a nuclear weapon through peaceful and diplomatic means. And crippling sanctions are something I'd called for five years ago when I was in Israel speaking at the Herzliya Conference. I laid out seven steps.

Crippling sanctions were number one. And they do work. You're seeing it right now in the economy. It's absolutely the right thing to do to have crippling sanctions. I'd have put them in place earlier, but it's good that we have them.

Number two, something I would add today is I would tighten those sanctions. I would say that ships that carry Iranian oil can't come into our ports. I imagine the EU would agree with us as well. Not only ships couldn't, I'd say companies that are moving their oil can't, people who are trading in their oil can't. I would tighten those sanctions further.

Secondly, I'd take on diplomatic isolation efforts. I'd make sure that Ahmadinejad is indicted under the Genocide Convention. His words amount to genocide incitation. I would indict him for it. I would also make sure that their diplomats are treated like the pariah they are around the world, the same way we treated the apartheid diplomats of South Africa.

We need to increase pressure time and time again on Iran because anything other than a—a—a solution to this which says—which stops this nuclear folly of theirs is unacceptable to America. And of course, a military action is the last resort. It is something one would only, only consider if all of the other avenues had been—had been tried to their full extent.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Let me ask both of you, there—as you know, there are reports that Iran and the United States, as part of an international group, have agreed in principle to talks about Iran's nuclear program. What is the deal if there are such talks? What is the deal that you would accept? Mr. President.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, first of all, those were reports in the newspaper. They are not true. But our goal is to get Iran to recognize it needs to give up its nuclear program and abide by the U.N. resolutions that have been in place, because they have the opportunity to re-enter the community of nations, and we would welcome that. There are—there are people in Iran who have the same aspirations as people all around the world, for a better life. And we hope that their leadership takes the right decision. But the deal we'll accept is, they end their nuclear program. It's very straightforward.

And you know, I'm glad that Governor Romney agrees with the steps that we're taking. You know, there have been times, Governor, frankly, during the course of this campaign, where it sounded like you thought that you'd do the some things we did, but you'd say them louder and somehow that that would make a difference, and it turns out that the work involved in setting up these crippling sanctions is painstaking; it's meticulous. We started from the day we got into office.

And the reason it was so important—and this is a testament to how we've restored American credibility and strength around the world—is we had to make sure that all the countries participated, even countries like Russia and China, because if it's just us that are imposing sanctions, we've had sanctions in place for a long time. It's because we got everybody to agree that Iran is seeing so much pressure. And we've got to maintain that pressure.

There is a deal to be had, and that is that they abide by the rules that have already been established; they convince the international community they are not pursuing a nuclear program; there are inspections that are very intrusive. But over time, what they can do is regain credibility. In the meantime, though, we're not going to let up the pressure until we have clear evidence that that takes place.

And one last thing. I'm—just to make this point: The clock is ticking.

We're not going to allow Iran to perpetually engage in negotiations that lead nowhere. And I've been very clear to them, you know, because of the intelligence coordination that we do with a range of countries, including Israel, we have a sense of when they would get breakout capacity, which means that we would not be able to intervene in time to stop their nuclear program, and that clock is ticking.

MR. SCHIEFFER: All right.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: And we're going to make sure that if they do not meet the demands of the international community, then we are going to take all options necessary to make sure they don't have a nuclear weapon.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Governor.

MR. ROMNEY: I think from the very beginning, one of the challenges we've had with Iran is that they have looked at this administration and—and felt that the administration was not as strong as it needed to be. I think they saw weakness where they had expected to find American strength.

And I say that because from the very beginning, the president, in his campaign some four years ago, said he'd meet with all the world's worst actors in his first year. He'd—he'd sit down with Chavez and—and Kim Jong-Il, with Castro and with—with President Ahmadinejad of—of Iran. And—and I think they looked and thought, well, that's an unusual honor to receive from the president of the United States.

And then the president began what I've called an apology tour of going to—to various nations in the Middle East and—and criticizing America. I think they looked at that and saw weakness. Then when there were dissidents in the streets of Tehran, the Green Revolution, holding signs saying, is America with us, the president was silent. I think they noticed that as well. And I think that when the president said he was going to create daylight between ourselves and Israel that—that they noticed that as well.

All of these things suggested, I think, to the Iranian mullahs that, hey, you know, we can keep on pushing along here; we can keep talks going on, but we're just going to keep on spinning centrifuges. Now there are some 10,000 centrifuges spinning uranium, preparing to—to create a—a—a—- a nuclear threat to the United States and to the world.

That's unacceptable for us, and—and—and it's essential for a president to show strength from the very beginning to make it very clear what is acceptable and not acceptable. And an Iranian nuclear program is not acceptable to us. They must not develop nuclear capability. And the way to make sure they understand that is by having from the very beginning the tightest sanctions possible. They need to be tightened. Our diplomatic isolation needs to be tougher. We need to indict Ahmadinejad. We need to put the pressure on them as hard as we possibly can, because if we do that, we won't have to take the military action.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Bob, let me just respond. Nothing Governor Romney just said is true, starting with this notion of me apologizing. This has been probably the biggest whopper that's been told during the course of this campaign, and every fact-checker and every reporter's looked at it. The governor has said this is not true.

And when it comes to tightening sanctions, look, as I said before, we've put in the toughest, most crippling sanctions ever. And the fact is while we were coordinating an international coalition to make sure these sanctions were effective, you were still invested in a Chinese state oil company that was doing business with the Iranian oil sector. So I'll let the American people decide, judge who's going to be more effective and more credible when it comes to imposing crippling sanctions.

And with respect to our attitude about the Iranian revolution, I was very clear about the murderous activities that had taken place, and that was contrary to international law and everything that civilized people stand for. And—and so the strength that we have shown in Iran is shown by the fact that we've been able to mobilize the world. When I came into office, the world was divided. Iran was resurgent. Iran is at its weakest point economically, strategically, militarily than since—than in many years.

MR. ROMNEY: We're four years closer to a nuclear Iran. We're four years closer to a nuclear Iran. And—and we should not have wasted these four years to the extent they've—they continue to be able to spin these centrifuges and get that much closer. That's number one.

Number two, Mr. President, the reason I call it an apology tour is because you went to the Middle East and you flew to—to Egypt and to Saudi Arabia and to—to Turkey and Iraq. And—and by way, you skipped Israel, our closest friend in the region, but you went to the other nations. And by the way, they noticed that you skipped Israel. And then in those nations and on Arabic TV you said that America had been dismissive and derisive. You said that on occasion America had dictated to other nations. Mr. President, America has not dictated to other nations. We have freed other nations from dictators.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Bob, let me—let me respond. You know, if we're going to talk about trips that we've taken, you know, when I was a candidate for office, first trip I took was to visit our troops.

And when I want to Israel as a candidate, I didn't take donors, I didn't attend fundraisers, I went to Yad Vashem, the—the Holocaust museum there, to remind myself the—the nature of evil and why our bond with Israel will be unbreakable.

And then I went down to the border towns of Sderot, which had experienced missiles raining down from Hamas. And I saw families there who showed me where missiles had come down near their children's bedrooms, and I was reminded of—of what that would mean if those were my kids, which is why, as president, we funded an Iron Dome program to stop those missiles.

So that's how I've used my travels when I travel to Israel and when I travel to the region.

And the central question at this point is going to be, who's going to be credible to all parties involved?

And they can look at my track record—whether it's Iran sanctions, whether it's dealing with counterterrorism, whether it's supporting democracy, whether it's supporting women's rights, whether it's supporting religious minorities—and they can say that the president of the United States and the United States of America has stood on the right side of history. And—and that kind of credibility is precisely why we've been able to show leadership on a wide range of issues facing the world right now.

MR. SCHIEFFER: What if—what if the prime minister of Israel called you on the phone and said: Our bombers are on the way. We're going to bomb Iran. What do you say?

MR. ROMNEY: Bob, let's not go into hypotheticals of that nature. Our relationship with Israel, my relationship with the prime minister of Israel is such that we would not get a call saying our bombers are on the way or their fighters are on the way. This is the kind of thing that would have been discussed and thoroughly evaluated well before that kind of action

MR. SCHIEFFER: So you're saying just what—

MR. ROMNEY: I'm—that's—that's—

MR. SCHIEFFER: OK. But let's see what—(inaudible)—

MR. ROMNEY: Yes, but let me—let me—let me come back—let's come back—let's come back and go back to what the president was speaking about, which is what's happening in the world and—and—and the president's statement that things are going so well.

Look, I—I look at what's happening around the world and I see Iran four years closer to a bomb. I see the Middle East with a rising tide of violence, chaos, tumult. I see jihadists continuing to spread. Whether they're rising or just about the same level hard to—hard to precisely measure, but it's clear they're there. They're very, very strong.

I see Syria with 30,000 civilians dead, Assad still in power. I see our trade deficit with China larger than it's—growing larger every year as a matter of fact. I look around the world and I don't feel that—you see North Korea continuing to export their nuclear technology.

Russia's said they're not going to follow Nunn-Lugar anymore; they're (back ?) away from their nuclear proliferation treaty that we had with them. I look around the world, I don't see our influence growing around the world. I see our influence receding, in part because of the failure of the president to deal with our economic challenges at home, in part because of our withdrawal from our commitment to our military and the way I think it ought to be, in part because of the—the—the turmoil with Israel. I mean, the president received a letter from 38 Democrat senators saying the tensions with Israel were a real problem.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: No.

MR. ROMNEY: They asked him, please repair the tension—Democrat senators—please repair the damage in his—in his own party.

MR. SCHIEFFER: All right.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Governor, the problem is, is that on a whole range of issues, whether it's the Middle East, whether it's Afghanistan, whether it's Iraq, whether it's now Iran, you've been all over the map. I mean, I'm pleased that you now are endorsing our policy of applying diplomatic pressure and potentially having bilateral discussions with the Iranians to end their nuclear program. But just a few years ago you said that's something you'd never do, in the same way that you initially opposed a time table in Afghanistan, now you're for it, although it depends; in the same way that you say you would have ended the war in Iraq, but recently gave a speech saying that we should have 20,000 more folks in there; the same way that you said that it was mission creep to go after Gadhafi.

When it comes to going after Osama bin Laden, you said, well, any president would make that call. But when you were a candidate in 2008—as I was—and I said, if I got bin Laden in our sights, I would take that shot, you said we shouldn't move heaven and earth to get one man, and you said we should ask Pakistan for permission.

And if we had asked Pakistan for permission, we would not have gotten him. And it was worth moving heaven and earth to get him.

You know, after we killed bin Laden, I was at Ground Zero for a memorial and talked to a—a—a young woman who was 4 years old when 9/11 happened.

And the last conversation she had with her father was him calling from the twin towers, saying, Peyton (sp), I love you, and I will always watch over you. And for the next decade she was haunted by that conversation. And she said to me, you know, by finally getting bin Laden, that brought some closure to me.

And when we do things like that, when we bring those who have harmed us to justice, that sends a message to the world, and it tells Peyton (sp) that we did not forget her father.

MR. SCHIEFFER: All right.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: And—and I make that point because that's the kind of clarity of leadership—and those decisions are not always popular. Those decisions generally are not poll-tested. And even some in my own party, including my current vice president, had the same critique as you did. But what the American people understand is, is that I look at what we need to get done to keep the American people safe and to move our interests forward, and I make those decisions.

MR. SCHIEFFER: All right. Let's go—and that leads us—this takes us right to the next segment, Governor, America's longest war, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

MR. ROMNEY: Bob—

MR. SCHIEFFER: Governor, you get to go first.

MR. ROMNEY: You can't—you can't—well, OK, but you can't have the president just lay out a whole series of items without giving me a chance to respond.

MR. SCHIEFFER: With respect, sir, you had laid out quite a program there.

MR. ROMNEY: Well, that's probably true. (Chuckles.)

MR. SCHIEFFER: And we'll—we'll give you—

PRESIDENT OBAMA: We'll agree (with that ?).

MR. SCHIEFFER: We'll catch you up.

The United States is scheduled to turn over responsibility for security in Afghanistan to the Afghans.

At that point we will withdraw our combat troops, leave a smaller force of Americans, if I understand our policy, in Afghanistan for training purposes. It seems to me the key question here is what do you do if the deadline arrives and it is obvious the Afghans are unable to handle their security? Do we still leave? And I believe Governor Romney, it—you go first.

MR. ROMNEY: Well, we're going to be finished by 2014. And when I'm president, we'll make sure we bring our troops out by the end of 2014. The commanders and the generals there are on track to do so. We've seen progress over the past several years. The surge has been successful, and the training program is proceeding at pace. There are now a large number of Afghan security forces, 350,000, that are—are ready to step in to provide security. And—and we're going to be able to make that transition by the end of—of 2014. So our troops'll come home at that point.

I—I can tell you, at the same time, that—that we will make sure that we—we look at what's happening in Pakistan and recognize that what's happening in Pakistan is going to have a major impact on the success in Afghanistan. And—and I say that because I know a lot of people just feel like we should just brush our hands and walk away. And I don't mean you, Mr. President, but some people in the—in our nation feel that Pakistan (doesn't ?)—being nice to us and that we should just walk away from them.

But Pakistan is important to the region, to the world and to us, because Pakistan has 100 nuclear warheads, and they're rushing to build a lot more. They'll have more than Great Britain sometime in the—in the relatively near future. They also have the Haqqani network and—and the Taliban existent within their country. And so a—a Pakistan that falls apart, becomes a failed state would be of extraordinary danger to Afghanistan and us. And so we're going to have to remain helpful in encouraging Pakistan to move towards a—a more stable government and—and rebuild a relationship with us. And that means that—that—that our aid that we provide to Pakistan is going to have to be conditioned upon certain benchmarks being met.

So for me, I look at this as both a—a—a need to help move Pakistan in the right direction and also to get Afghanistan to be ready. And they will be ready by the end of 2014.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President

President OBAMA: You know, when I came into office, we were still bogged down in Iraq, and Afghanistan had been drifting for a decade. We ended the war in Iraq, refocused our attention on Afghanistan. And we did deliver a surge of troops. That was facilitated in part because we had ended the war in Iraq.

And we are now in a position where we have met many of the objectives that got us there in the first place. Part of what had happened is we'd forgotten why we'd gone. We went because there were people who were responsible for 3,000 American deaths. And so we decimated al-Qaida's core leadership in the border regions between Afghanistan and Pakistan. We then started to build up Afghan forces. And we're now in a position where we can transition out, because there's no reason why Americans should die when Afghans are perfectly capable of defending their own country.

Now, that transition's—has to take place in a responsible fashion. We've been there a long time, and we've got to make sure that we and our coalition partners are pulling out responsibly and giving Afghans the capabilities that they need.

But what I think the American people recognize is after a decade of war, it's time to do some nation-building here at home. And what we can now do is free up some resources to, for example, put Americans back to work, especially our veterans, rebuilding our roads, our bridges, our schools, making sure that, you know, our veterans are getting the care that they need when it comes to post-traumatic stress disorder and traumatic brain injury, making sure that the certifications that they need for good jobs of the future are in place.

You know, I was having lunch with some—a veteran in Minnesota who had been a medic dealing with the most extreme circumstances. When he came home and he wanted to become a nurse, he had to start from scratch. And what we've said is, let's change those certifications.

The first lady has done great work with an organization called Joining Forces putting our veterans back to work. And as a consequence, veterans' unemployment is actually now lower than general population, it was higher when I came into office. So those are the kinds of things that we can now do because we're making that transition in Afghanistan.

MR. SCHIEFFER: All right. Let me go to Governor Romney because you talked about Pakistan and what needs to be done there. General Allen, our commander in Afghanistan, says that Americans continue to die at the hands of groups who are supported by Pakistan. We know that Pakistan has arrested the doctor who helped us catch Obama's—bin Laden. It still provides safe haven for terrorists, yet we continue to give Pakistan billions of dollars. Is it time for us to divorce Pakistan?

MR. ROMNEY: No, it's not time to divorce a nation on earth that has a hundred nuclear weapons and is on the way to double that at some point, a nation that has serious threats from terrorist groups within its nation—as I indicated before, the Taliban, Haqqani network. It's a nation that's not like—like others and that does not have a civilian leadership that is calling the shots there.

You've got the ISI, their intelligence organization is probably the most powerful of the—of the three branches there. Then you have the military and then you have the—the civilian government. This is a nation which if it falls apart—if it becomes a failed state, there are nuclear weapons there and you've got—you've got terrorists there who could grab their—their hands onto those nuclear weapons.

This is—this is an important part of the world for us. Pakistan is—is technically an ally, and they're not acting very much like an ally right now, but we have some work to do.

And I—I don't blame the administration for the fact that the relationship with Pakistan is strained. We had to go into Pakistan; we had to go in there to get Osama bin Laden. That was the right thing to do. And that upset them, but there was obviously a great deal of anger even before that. But we're going to have to work with the—with the people in Pakistan to try and help them move to a more responsible course than the one that they're on. And it's important for them, it's important for the nuclear weapons, it's important for the success of Afghanistan, because inside Pakistan you have a large group of Pashtuns that are—that are Taliban, that they're going to come rushing back into Afghanistan when we go. And that's one of the reasons the Afghan security forces have so much work to do to be able to fight against that. But it's important for us to recognize that we can't just walk away from Pakistan. But we do need to make sure that as we—as we send support for them, that this is tied to them making progress on—on matters that would lead them to becoming a civil society.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Let me ask you, Governor, because we know President Obama's position on this, what is—what is your position on the use of drones?

MR. ROMNEY: Well, I believe that we should use any and all means necessary to take out people who pose a threat to us and our friends around the world. And it's widely reported that drones are being used in drone strikes, and I support that entirely and feel the president was right to up the usage of that technology and believe that we should continue to use it to continue to go after the people who represent a threat to this nation and to our friends.

Let me also note that, as I said earlier, we're going to have to do more than just going after leaders and—and killing bad guys, important as that is. We're also going to have to have a far more effective and comprehensive strategy to help move the world away from terror and Islamic extremism.

We haven't done that yet. We talk a lot about these things, but you look at the—the record. You look at the record of the last four years and say, is Iran closer to a bomb? Yes. Is the Middle East in tumult? Yes. Is—is al-Qaida on the run, on its heels? No. Is—are Israel and the Palestinians closer to—to reaching a peace agreement? No, they haven't had talks in two years. We have not seen the progress we need to have, and I'm convinced that with strong leadership and an effort to build a strategy based upon helping these nations reject extremism, we can see the kind of peace and prosperity the world demands.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, keep in mind our strategy wasn't just going after bin Laden. We've created partnerships throughout the region to deal with extremism—in Somalia, in Yemen, in Pakistan. And what we've also done is engage these governments in the kind of reforms that are actually going to make a difference in people's lives day to day, to make sure that their government aren't corrupt, to make sure that they are treating women with the kind of respect and dignity that every nation that succeeds has shown, and to make sure that they've got a free market system that works.

So across the board, we are engaging them in building capacity in these countries and we have stood on the side of democracy. One thing I think Americans should be proud of—when Tunisians began to protest, this nation, me, my administration stood with them earlier than just about any other country. In Egypt we stood on the side of democracy. In Libya we stood on the side of the people. And as a consequence there is no doubt that attitudes about Americans have changed.

But there are always going to be elements in these countries that potentially threaten the United States.

And we want to shrink those groups and those networks, and we can do that, but we're always also going to have to maintain vigilance when it comes to terrorist activities. The truth, though, is that al-Qaida is much weaker than it was when I came into office, and they don't have the same capacities to attack the U.S. homeland and our allies as they did four years ago.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to the next segment because it's a very important one. It is the rise of China and future challenges for America. I want to just begin this by asking both of you—and Mr. President, you go first this time—what do you believe is the greatest future threat to the national security of this country?

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, I think it will continue to be terrorist networks. We have to remain vigilant, as I just said.

But with respect to China, China's both an adversary but also a potential partner in the international community if it's following the rules. So my attitude coming into office was that we are going to insist that China plays by the same rules as everybody else.

And I know Americans had—had seen jobs being shipped overseas, businesses and workers not getting a level playing field when it came to trade. And that's the reason why I set up a trade task force to go after cheaters when it came to international trade. That's the reason why we have brought more cases against China for violating trade rules than the other—the previous administration had done in two terms. And we've won just about every case that we've filed, that—that has been decided. In fact, just recently, steelworkers in Ohio and throughout the Midwest, Pennsylvania, are in a position now to sell steel to China because we won that case.

And I — I don't blame the administration for the fact that the relationship with Pakistan is strained. We had to go into Pakistan; we had to go in there to get Osama bin Laden. That was the right thing to do. And that upset them, but there was obviously a great deal of anger even before that. But we're going to have to work with the — with the people in Pakistan to try and help them move to a more responsible course than the one that they're on. And it's important for them, it's important for the nuclear weapons, it's important for the success of Afghanistan, because inside Pakistan you have a large group of Pashtuns that are — that are Taliban, that they're going to come rushing back into Afghanistan when we go. And that's one of the reasons the Afghan security forces have so much work to do to be able to fight against that. But it's important for us to recognize that we can't just walk away from Pakistan. But we do need to make sure that as we — as we send support for them, that this is tied to them making progress on — on matters that would lead them to becoming a civil society.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Let me ask you, Governor, because we know President Obama's position on this, what is — what is your position on the use of drones?

MR. ROMNEY: Well, I believe that we should use any and all means necessary to take out people who pose a threat to us and our friends around the world. And it's widely reported that drones are being used in drone strikes, and I support that entirely and feel the president was right to up the usage of that technology and believe that we should continue to use it to continue to go after the people who represent a threat to this nation and to our friends.

Let me also note that, as I said earlier, we're going to have to do more than just going after leaders and — and killing bad guys, important as that is. We're also going to have to have a far more effective and comprehensive strategy to help move the world away from terror and Islamic extremism.

We haven't done that yet. We talk a lot about these things, but you look at the — the record. You look at the record of the last four years and say, is Iran closer to a bomb? Yes. Is the Middle East in tumult? Yes. Is — is al-Qaida on the run, on its heels? No. Is — are Israel and the Palestinians closer to — to reaching a peace agreement? No, they haven't had talks in two years. We have not seen the progress we need to have, and I'm convinced that with strong leadership and an effort to build a strategy based upon helping these nations reject extremism, we can see the kind of peace and prosperity the world demands.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, keep in mind our strategy wasn't just going after bin Laden. We've created partnerships throughout the region to deal with extremism — in Somalia, in Yemen, in Pakistan. And what we've also done is engage these governments in the kind of reforms that are actually going to make a difference in people's lives day to day, to make sure that their government aren't corrupt, to make sure that they are treating women with the kind of respect and dignity that every nation that succeeds has shown, and to make sure that they've got a free market system that works

So across the board, we are engaging them in building capacity in these countries and we have stood on the side of democracy. One thing I think Americans should be proud of — when Tunisians began to protest, this nation, me, my administration stood with them earlier than just about any other country. In Egypt we stood on the side of democracy. In Libya we stood on the side of the people. And as a consequence there is no doubt that attitudes about Americans have changed.

But there are always going to be elements in these countries that potentially threaten the United States.

And we want to shrink those groups and those networks, and we can do that, but we're always also going to have to maintain vigilance when it comes to terrorist activities. The truth, though, is that al-Qaida is much weaker than it was when I came into office, and they don't have the same capacities to attack the U.S. homeland and our allies as they did four years ago.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to the next segment because it's a very important one. It is the rise of China and future challenges for America. I want to just begin this by asking both of you — and Mr. President, you go first this time — what do you believe is the greatest future threat to the national security of this country?

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, I think it will continue to be terrorist networks. We have to remain vigilant, as I just said.

But with respect to China, China's both an adversary but also a potential partner in the international community if it's following the rules. So my attitude coming into office was that we are going to insist that China plays by the same rules as everybody else.

And I know Americans had — had seen jobs being shipped overseas, businesses and workers not getting a level playing field when it came to trade. And that's the reason why I set up a trade task force to go after cheaters when it came to international trade. That's the reason why we have brought more cases against China for violating trade rules than the other — the previous administration had done in two terms. And we've won just about every case that we've filed, that — that has been decided. In fact, just recently, steelworkers in Ohio and throughout the Midwest, Pennsylvania, are in a position now to sell steel to China because we won that case.

We had a tire case in which they were flooding us with cheap domestic tires — or — or — or cheap Chinese tires. And we put a stop to it and, as a consequence, saved jobs throughout America. I have to say that Governor Romney criticized me for being too tough in that tire case, said this wouldn't be good for American workers and that it would be protectionist. But I tell you, those workers don't feel that way. They feel as if they had finally an administration who was going to take this issue seriously.

Over the long term, in order for us to compete with China, we've also got to make sure, though, that we're taking — taking care of business here at home. If we don't have the best education system in the world, if we don't continue to put money into research and technology that will allow us to — to create great businesses here in the United States, that's how we lose the competition. And unfortunately, Governor Romney's budget and his proposals would not allow us to make those investments.

MR. SCHIEFFER: All right. Governor.

MR. ROMNEY: Well, first of all, it's not government that makes business successful. It's not government investments that make businesses grow and hire people.

Let me also note that the greatest threat that the world faces, the greatest national security threat, is a nuclear Iran.

Let's talk about China. China has an interest that's very much like ours in one respect, and that is they want a stable world. They don't want war. They don't want to see protectionism. They don't want to see the — the world break out into — into various forms of chaos, because they have to — they have to manufacture goods and put people to work. And they have about 20,000 — 20 million, rather, people coming out of the farms every year, coming into the cities, needing jobs. So they want the economy to work and the world to be free and open.

And so we can be a partner with China. We don't have to be an adversary in any way, shape or form. We can work with them. We can collaborate with them if they're willing to be responsible.

Now, they look at us and say, is it a good idea to be with America?

How strong are we going to be? How strong is our economy?

They look at the fact that we owe them a trillion dollars and owe other people 16 trillion (dollars) in total, including them. They — they look at our — our decision to — to cut back on our military capabilities — a trillion dollars. The secretary of defense called these trillion dollars of cuts to our military devastating. It's not my term. It's the president's own secretary of defense called them devastating. They look at America's commitments around the world and they see what's happening and they say, well, OK, is America going to be strong? And the answer is yes. If I'm president, America will be very strong.

We'll also make sure that we have trade relations with China that work for us. I've watched year in and year out as companies have shut down and people have lost their jobs because China has not played by the same rules, in part by holding down artificially the value of their currency. It holds down the prices of their goods. It means our goods aren't as competitive and we lose jobs. That's got to end.

They're making some progress; they need to make more. That's why on day one I will label them a currency manipulator which allows us to apply tariffs where they're taking jobs. They're stealing our intellectual property, our patents, our designs, our technology, hacking into our computers, counterfeiting our goods. They have to understand, we want to trade with them, we want a world that's stable, we like free enterprise, but you got to play by the rules.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Well, Governor, let me just ask you, if you declare them a currency manipulator on day one, some people are saying you're just going to start a trade war with China on day one. Is that — isn't there a risk that that could happen?

MR. ROMNEY: Well, they sell us about this much stuff every year. And we sell them about this much stuff every year. So it's pretty clear who doesn't want a trade war. And there's one going on right now that we don't know about. It's a silent one and they're winning. We have an enormous trade imbalance with China. And it's worse this year than last year. And it was worse last year than the year before.

And — and so we have to understand that we can't just surrender and — and lose jobs year in and year out. We have to say to our friends in China, look, you guys are playing aggressively, we understand it, but — but this can't keep on going. You can't keep on holding down the value of your currency, stealing our intellectual property, counterfeiting our products, selling them around the world, even into the United States.

I was with one company that makes valves in — in process industries. And they said, look, we were — we were having some valves coming in that — that were broken, and we had to repair them under warranty. And we looked them up, and — and they had our serial number on them. And then we noticed that — that there was more than one with that same serial number. They were counterfeit products being made overseas with the same serial number as a U.S. company, the same packaging. These were being sold into our market and around the world as if they were made by the U.S. competitor.

This can't go on. I want a great relationship with China. China can be our partner. But — but that doesn't mean they can just roll all over us and steal our jobs on an unfair basis.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, Governor Romney's right. You are familiar with jobs being shipped overseas, because you invested in companies that were shipping jobs overseas. And, you know, that's your right. I mean, that's how our free market works.

But I've made a different bet on American workers. You know, if we had taken your advice, Governor Romney, about our auto industry, we'd be buying cars from China instead of selling cars to China. If we take your advice with respect to how we change our tax codes so that companies that are in profits overseas don't pay U.S. taxes compared to companies here that are paying taxes, now, that's estimated to create 800,000 jobs. The problem is they won't be here; they'll be in places like China. And if we're not making investments in education and basic research, which is not something that the private sector is doing at a sufficient pace right now and has never done, then we will lose the lead in things like clean energy technology.

Now, with respect to what we've done with China already, U.S. exports have doubled, since I came into office, to China. And actually, currencies are at their most advantageous point for U.S. exporters since 1993. We absolutely have to make more progress, and that's why we're going to keep on pressing.

And when it comes to our military and Chinese security, part of the reason that we were able to pivot to the Asia-Pacific region after having ended the war in Iraq and transitioning out of Afghanistan, is precisely because this is going to be a massive growth area in the future. And we believe China can be a partner, but we're also sending a very clear signal that America is a Pacific power, that we are going to have a presence there. We are working with countries in the region to make sure, for example, that ships can pass through, that commerce continues. And we're organizing trade relations with countries other than China so that China starts feeling more pressure about meeting basic international standards. That's the kind of leadership we've shown in the region. That's the kind of leadership that we'll continue to show.

MR. ROMNEY: I just want to take one of those points. Again, attacking me is not talking about an agenda for getting more trade and opening up more jobs in this country. But the president mentioned the auto industry and that somehow I would be in favor of jobs being elsewhere. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm a son of Detroit. I was born in Detroit. My dad was head of a car company. I like American cars. And I would do nothing to hurt the U.S. auto industry. My plan to get the industry on its feet when it was in real trouble was not to start writing checks. It was President Bush that wrote the first checks. I disagree with that. I said they need — these companies need to go through a managed bankruptcy, and in that process they can get government help and government guarantees, but they need to go through bankruptcy to get rid of excess cost and the debt burden that they'd — they'd built up.

And fortunately the president picked —

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Governor Romney, that's not what you said.

MR. ROMNEY: Fortunately, the president — you can take — you can take a look at the op-ed.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Governor, you did not —

MR. ROMNEY: You can take a look at the op-ed.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: You did not say that you would provide, Governor, help.

MR. ROMNEY: You know, I'm — I'm still speaking. I said that we would provide guarantees and — and that was what was able to allow these companies to go through bankruptcy, to come out of bankruptcy. Under no circumstances would I do anything other than to help this industry get on its feet. And the idea that has been suggested that I would liquidate the industry — of course not. Of course not.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Let's check the record.

MR. ROMNEY: That's the height of silliness.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Let's — let's check the record.

MR. ROMNEY: I have never said I would — I would liquidate the industry. I want to keep the industry growing and thriving.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Governor, the people in Detroit don't forget.

MR. ROMNEY: And — and that's I have the kind of commitment to make sure that our industries in this country can compete and be successful. We in this country can compete successfully with anyone in the world. And we're going to. We're going to have to have a president, however, that doesn't think that somehow the government investing in — in car companies like Tesla and — and Fisker, making electric battery cars — this is not research, Mr. President. These are the government investing in companies, investing in Solyndra. This is a company. This isn't basic research. I — I want to invest in research. Research is great. Providing funding to universities and think tanks — great. But investing in companies? Absolutely not. That's the wrong way to go.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Governor, the fact of the matter is —

MR. ROMNEY: I'm still speaking.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well — (chuckles) —

MR. ROMNEY: So I want to make sure that we make — we make America more competitive —

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Yeah.

MR. ROMNEY: — and that we do those things that make America the most attractive place in the world for entrepreneurs, innovators, businesses to grow. But your investing in companies doesn't do that. In fact it makes it less likely for them to come here —

PRESIDENT OBAMA: All right, Governor —

MR. ROMNEY: — because the private sector's not going to invest in a — in a — in a solar company if —

PRESIDENT OBAMA: I'm happy — I'm — I'm — I'm happy to respond —

MR. ROMNEY: — if you're investing government money and someone else's.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: You've held the floor for a while. The — look, I think anybody out there can check the record. Governor Romney, you keep on trying to, you know, airbrush history here.

You were very clear that you would not provide government assistance to the U.S. auto companies even if they went through bankruptcy. You said that they could get it in the private marketplace. That wasn't true. They would have gone through a —

MR. ROMNEY: You're wrong. You're wrong, Mr. President.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: I — no, I am not wrong.

MR. ROMNEY: You're wrong.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: I am not wrong. And —

MR. ROMNEY: People can look it up. You're right.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: People will look it up.

MR. ROMNEY: Good.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: But more importantly, it is true that in order for us to be competitive, we're going to have to make some smart choices right now. Cutting our education budget — that's not a smart choice. That will not help us compete with China. Cutting our investments in research and technology — that's not a smart choice. That will not help us compete with China. Bringing down (sic) our deficit by adding $7 trillion of tax cuts and military spending that our military's not asking for before we even get to the debt that we currently have — that is not going to make us more competitive. Those are the kinds of choices that the American people face right now. Having a tax code that rewards companies that are shipping jobs overseas instead of companies that are investing here in the United States — that will not make us more competitive.

And — and the one thing that I'm absolutely clear about is that after a decade in which we saw drift, jobs being shipped overseas, nobody championing American workers and American businesses, we've now begun to make some real progress. What we can't do is go back to the same policies that got us into such difficulty in the first place. And that's why we have to move forward and not go back.

MR. ROMNEY: I couldn't agree more about going forward, but I certainly don't want to go back to the policies of the last four years. The policies of the last four years have seen incomes in America decline every year for middle-income families, now down $4,300 during your term, 23 million Americans still struggling to find a good job. When you came into office, 32 million people on food stamps — today 47 million people on food stamps.

When you came to office, just over $10 trillion in debt — now $16 trillion in debt. It hasn't worked. You said by now we'd be at 5.4 percent unemployment. We're 9 million jobs short of that. I've met some of those people. I've met them in Appleton, Wisconsin. I — I met a young woman in — in — in Philadelphia who's coming out of — out of college, can't find work. I've been — Ann was with someone just the other day that was just weeping about not being able to get work. It's just a tragedy in a nation so prosperous as ours that these last four years have been so hard.

And that — and that's why it's so critical that we make America once again the most attractive place in the world to start businesses, to build jobs, to grow the economy. And that's not going to happen by — by just hiring teachers. Look, I — I love to — I love teachers, and I'm happy to have states and communities that want to hire teachers, do that. I — by the way, I don't like to have the federal government start pushing its way deeper and deeper into — into our schools. Let the states and localities do that. I was a governor. The federal government didn't hire our teachers.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Governor —

MR. ROMNEY: But I love teachers. But I want to get our private sector growing, and I know how to do it.

MR. SCHIEFFER: I think we all love teachers. (Laughter.) Gentlemen, thank you so much for a very vigorous debate. We have come to the end. It is time for closing statements. I believe you're first, Mr. President.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, thank you very much Bob, Governor Romney, and to Lynn University.

You know, you've now heard three debates, months of campaigning and way too many TV commercials. (Laughter.) And now you've got a choice. You know, over the last four years, we've made real progress digging our way out of policies that gave us two prolonged wars, record deficits and the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.

And Governor Romney wants to take us back to those policies: a foreign policy that's wrong and reckless; economic policies that won't create jobs, won't reduce our deficit, but will make sure that folks at the very top don't have to play by the same rules that you do.

And I've got a different vision for America. I want to build on our strengths. And I put forward a plan to make sure that we're bringing manufacturing jobs back to our shores by rewarding companies and small businesses that are investing here not overseas. I want to make sure we've got the best education system in the world and we're retraining our workers for the jobs of tomorrow.

I want to control our own energy by developing oil and natural gas, but also the energy sources of the future. Yes, I want to reduce our deficit by cutting spending that we don't need, but also by asking the wealthy to do a little bit more so that we can invest in things like research and technology that are the key to a 21st century economy.

As commander in chief, I will maintain the strongest military in the world, keep faith with our troops and go after those who would do us harm. But after a decade of war, I think we all recognize we got to do some nation building here at home, rebuilding our roads, our bridges and especially caring for our veterans who've sacrificed so much for our freedom.

You know, we've been through tough times, but we always bounce back because of our character, because we pull together. And if I have the privilege of being your president for another four years, I promise you I will always listen to your voices, I will fight for your families and I will work every single day to make sure that America continues to be the greatest nation on earth. Thank you.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Governor.

MR. ROMNEY: Thank you, Bob, Mr. President, folks at Lynn University — good to be with you. I'm optimistic about the future. I'm excited about our prospects as a nation. I want to see peace. I want to see growing peace in this country, it's our objective. We have an opportunity to have real leadership. America's going to have that kind of leadership and continue to promote principles of peace that'll make a world the safer place and make people in this country more confident that their future is secure.

I also want to make sure that we get this economy going. And there are two very different paths the country can take. One is a path represented by the president, which, at the end of four years, would mean we'd have $20 trillion in debt, heading towards Greece. I'll get us on track to a balanced budget. The president's path will mean continuing declining in take-home pay. I want to make sure our take-home pay turns around and starts to grow. The president's path means 20 million people out of work struggling for a good job. I'll get people back to work with 12 million new jobs. I'm going to make sure that we get people off of food stamps not by cutting the program but by getting them good jobs.

America's going to come back. And for that to happen, we're going to have to have a president who can work across the aisle. I was in a state where my legislature was 87 percent Democrat. I learned how to get along on the other side of the aisle. We've got to do that in Washington. Washington is broken. I know what it takes to get this country back. And we'll work with good Democrats and good Republicans to do that.

This nation is the hope of the earth. We've been blessed by having a nation that's free and prosperous thanks to the contributions of the Greatest Generation. They've held a torch for the world to see, the torch of freedom and hope and opportunity. Now it's our turn to take that torch. I'm convinced we'll do it. We need strong leadership. I'd like to be that leader, with your support. I'll work with you. I'll lead you in an open and honest way. And I ask for your vote. I'd like to be the next president of the United States to support and help this great nation, and to make sure that we all together maintain America as the hope of the earth. Thank you so much.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Gentlemen, thank you both so much. That brings an end to this year's debates. And we want to thank Lynn University and its students for having us. As I always do at the end of these debates, I leave you with the words of my mom who said, go vote. It makes you feel big and strong.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: That's great.

MR. SCHIEFFER: Good night.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Thank you.
主持人：大家晚上好，我们在佛罗里达州博卡拉顿的林恩大学，这次问题并没有和我们总统的候选人进行沟通，所以我们现在这次辩论当中观众不要喝彩或者是喝倒彩，欢迎奥巴马总统和罗姆尼州长。

罗姆尼：我们必须要确保我们能够把这些恐怖分子都绳之以法，这是最重要的，更重要的是我们必须要找到方法，让穆斯林国家能够反对激进主义，我们正确做法是让反美的，比如穆斯林的激进分子集团，让他们改变他们的做法，我们怎么样能够帮助世界来反对恐怖主义，我们现在应该让我们的外资援助，用这些方法能够来应对这些问题。

第二点就是教育。第三点就是我们必须要有平等。第四点就是法制。我们必须要有一个法制的社会，那么在过去的几年当中，我们看到的是中东地区的动乱，我们看到了中东地区非常严重的动乱，还有基地组织，都扰乱了中东地区的和平，我们在这里看到中东地区是有一些进展，但是还是有很多的悲剧发生，我们看到埃及有8000万人口，我们希望能够确保在埃及还有中东地区能够有一些进展。叙利亚问题，我们现在叙利亚总统阿萨德仍然在台上镇压民众，伊朗也是很重要的问题。他也影响到了地区的安全和和平。

奥巴马：罗姆尼州长我非常高兴，你认为基地组织是一个威胁，你回答这个问题的时候是俄国并不是基地组织。当我们说到外交政策的时候，你其实用的是90年代的外交政策，你当时说的是，你并不是很在乎在伊拉克发生的事情，但是在几个星期之前，你说我们应该现在在伊拉克增兵，现在我们所面临的一个挑战，当然我知道你现在也没有这个条件来实施外交政策，但是我想说的是你的外交政策上的观点是错误的。比如说我们在大规模杀伤性武器问题上，你说我们现在应该在伊拉克增兵，你说我们应该通过和俄国的条约，你的答案并不是肯定的，你说可能要从阿富汗撤兵，这个要看清楚。所以我们现在在中东的期望是希望能够有一个很好的领导层，希望中东领导能够比较稳定，但是你在宣传当中所传出的观点，并没有为美国安全所考虑。那么这里我想请罗姆尼州长进行一下回应。

罗姆尼：我当然不同意刚才奥巴马总统所说我的一些意见，对于我的一些看法是不准确的，我们现在在谈中东地区，那么怎么样能够帮助中东地区解决恐怖主义的问题，怎么样能够解决中东的动乱问题，我们现在必须要能够使用当地一些机遇，那么在这里我想回应一下你刚才所说的几点，第一个就是俄国，我说的是俄国是我们地缘政治的一个对手。之前我说伊朗是我们一个国家安全的威胁，但是俄国仍然是美国在很多问题上的一个对手，那么我当然不会跟普京说，我说我会给你太多的灵活度，在这种问题上我是不会松口的。

奥巴马：伊拉克问题上我想我们两个应该是达成共识了，我不会让十万人仍然留在伊拉克，我觉得这不会帮助中东的问题。

罗姆尼：其实我觉得在伊拉克部署兵力应该是一个非常重要的手段，这是我的一个立场。我们现在在伊拉克有5000兵力，我觉得应该增加

奥巴马：这是你几个星期之前说的增兵，我当时只是说你并没有能够在冲突之后兑现你之前一些承诺。那么作为总司令，你在说话的时候必须要态度非常明确，不管是对盟军还是对我们的对手，你必须要态度非常明确，你在几周之前说，我们必须要在伊拉克布兵，这并不是现在解决方法能够抓住我们中东的机遇。非常确定的一点，我们现在没有办法解决很多的问题，所以我的方法就是，第一点我们要确保伊拉克能够帮助我们反对恐怖主义。第二，我们确保能够保证以色列的安全，因为以色列是我们的盟国。第三，我们必须要能够确保宗教少数派以及妇女安全，他们对于中东来说是非常重要的。第四，我们必须要能够帮助发展中东一些国家的经济、能力。我们必须要确保美国的本土的安全，才能够帮助中东这些国家，这样才能真正实现美国的领导力。

主持人：我们说一下跟中东相关的问题，刚才两位谈到叙利亚问题，现在有叙利亚和黎巴嫩的冲突，当时死了很多人，当时有很多游行，之前我们都说到阿萨德现在应该下台，现在叙利亚有30万的难民是逃往邻国，我们在看外交政策的时候，我们是不是应该有什么办法能够更好影响叙利亚呢？你觉得这可能吗？

奥巴马：我们现在做的是团结国际社会，我们说阿萨德应该下台。我们进行了一些制裁，我们也确保他们现在是孤立无援的，另外我们也帮助反对力量，我们要确保能够使用，在叙利亚内部的反对力量，但是叙利亚人民要决定自己的未来。所以我们现在所做的一切都是和在当地，比如说我们和以色列，和一些其它国家进行磋商，看一下我们在叙利亚问题上应该怎么解决。那么还有一些其它国家，这些国家在叙利亚问题上有很多的利益的。所以我们会竭尽所能帮助当地，但是我们在军事方面参与更多，我们必须要确定我们不会把武装武器，送给把枪口指向美国的人手上。也就是罗姆尼州长说到的，我们把一些重型武器给武装分子并不是很好的解决方法。

罗姆尼：叙利亚问题是非常重要的，首先三万人已经丧生了，这是一个人道主义灾难，另外对我们是非常好的机遇，叙利亚在中东问题上扮演非常重要的角色。叙利亚是伊朗唯一的盟国，而且他们和其它一些国家的联盟，影响到了我们的盟国以色列的安全。

第二点，我们必须要看到由负责任的政府领导叙利亚，我们现在不希望参与军事冲突，我们希望能够使用我们的资源来找到我们负责任的一些合作伙伴。那么我们希望能够有一些理事会，这样能够帮助我们解决叙利亚问题，我们必须要确保我们的武器不会落入坏人手中。我们应该和我们的盟国，特别是以色列这样的盟国进行协调。那么很多的国家，很多的领导人都非常关注这个问题，那么我想在这个问题上，在叙利亚问题上美国应该使用自己的领导力，这样确保当地的反对力量能够有武器。我觉得阿萨德一定会下台的，而且他必须得下台。我们想在未来和当地的人民和当地的国家建立友谊，我们希望他成为我们的合作伙伴，这对于美国是非常好的机会。

一开始总统说的我们让联合国解决这个问题，当时有联合国特使安南来解决叙利亚问题，但是我们应该在这里引用美国的影响力，我们现在是在起到一个领导的作用的，我们现在正在使用人道主义的一些支持，并且支持反对力量

奥巴马：我们必须要确保我们帮助的那些人会是我们长期的伙伴，并且是在区域的盟军成为我们。这是非常好的例子，看我们怎么做出选择。我们要停止大范围的杀戮，现在必须要确保，像当年利比亚、卡扎非能够下台，当时我们和北约的盟军一起发动了军事进攻，当时我们确定卡扎非能够被捕，下台。这是我们行动的一些方式，当时卡扎非他手上所沾的美国人的鲜血不比本.拉登要少。我们现在要确保利比亚问题要解决。

但是我们做法是非常小心和谨慎，我们知道在与谁打交道，我们和这些军队进行合作，我们必须要进行审慎的思考，在叙利亚问题上也需要这样的思考。

罗姆尼：你说在叙利亚不应该有这样一些特殊，我们并不需要把军队放在叙利亚，我们要取代阿萨德，要建立一个新的政府，这个政府是对我们友好的，他们有武器进行自我防卫，同时能够打败阿萨德。但是我们并不需要进行军事参与，没有这样必要，我们在这个区域有合作伙伴，我们有足够的资源支持这些军队，这些努力已经进行了多年了。现在应该让美国人发挥领导作用，我们必须要发挥领导作用，我们应该在政府、组织上发挥领导作用，而不是军队上发挥领导作用，让他们负责任。现在这些人非常支离破散，没有组织，我们要确保他们有武器发挥非常重要的作用，也就是打败阿萨德。

奥巴马：我非常快速的讲两句，罗姆尼州长刚才所讲的，他的看法和我们一样是的，没有不同的做法，我们现在所做的是我们应该做的，我们要创造一个综合的叙利亚的领导者，来去把这个国家进行比较好的发展。

主持人：在出现反对的时候，当时有一个计划。当时有一个计划，你是否有后悔呢？

奥巴马：没有，我不后悔，美国必须要支持民主，我们现在拥有的看法就是，你知道有那么多的坦克杀死了人们，这并不是美国人所要主导的一种行为，我也说过，现在你们在埃及有一个民主的选择的政府，必须要确保这个政府去负责任的去保护他们的少数的宗教民族。要认识到城镇妇女的权益，在整个区域都是至关重要的。如果这些年轻妇女没有获得发展，这样国家不能发展。他们必须要遵守以色列的权益，必须确保反恐方面和我们进行合作，我们要去帮助他们，发展他们自己的经济。因为最后使埃及的革命取得成功的就是，这一点需要年轻人聚在那里，他们能够看到机会，他们的愿望和美国人是一样的，他们希望获得这个机会，他们要确保他们孩子能够去好的学校，他们要确保自己有住房。他们在将来有着更好的生活，因此有一点我们正在做，就是组织一些会议，和埃及人组织一些会议。让他们了解他们怎么样重建自己的经济。这样一个政府和经济应该是透明的，没有腐败的，对我们来说美国要在这个区域取得成功，有一些事情我们必须要在美国去做。在过去十年当中有一个挑战，就是我们在国家建立，在伊拉克还有阿富汗进行国家建立，我们忽视能源不怎么发展，在世界范围内起到领导作用。

罗姆尼：总统已经说过了，我非常支持他的行为。我觉得应该有一个更好的未来的愿景，你看看总统的任期，我们应该认识到现在在那个国家有一种愿望，可以获得自由。我们帮助他们建立一个更有代表性的政府，他们不破坏现有的东西，一旦他们破坏，总统说的是正确的。埃及的人们他们都会讲到一些原则，奥巴马总统可能会做一些事情，我们没有办法想象的，我们无法支持的。我们中东和其它地区的使命，我们谈谈这个话题，我们目标就是使这个世界变得更加和平，我们希望地球更加和平，让人们享受自己的生活，在将来有繁荣幸福，而不是战争，这是需要很好的领导力精神去向美国这样促进全世界的和平，这也是我们一直要做的。对于我们来说要促进这些和平原则，要求我们变得更强大，首先必须有一个强大的经济，现在我们经济并不是很强劲。

伊朗总统说，有一些债务使我们的国家不是特别的伟大，还有一些人说，我们的债务是我们所面临的一个最大的国家安全问题，现在经济比较薄弱，我们需要使它更加强大，我们也需要使军队更加强大，我们有很好的情报。但是你知道要减军费支出一万亿，我们需要强大的盟国，必须和他们建立很好的关系，这可以增强我们的力量，我们现在有42个盟军，我们必须要遵守原则。当然美国也想不断的变大，世界范围内美国现在影响没有四年前那么大

主持人：我希望我们的州长也能够有机会做出一些反应，我们应该看一下美国在世界范围内所发挥得作用，这是我们一个目的。你们两个人觉得我们美国在世界范围内发挥得作用怎么样？罗姆尼州长可以说一下。

罗姆尼：我觉得美国是有责任的，美国也有一种优势，可以去促进我们的原则，在世界范围内被遵守，这些原则包括人类的尊严，人权，自由表达，有选举的原则，当有选举的时候，人们不会愿意有战争，希望有和平。世界范围内也有一些冲突的地方，我们要停止冲突，尽可能以人为方法去停止，但是世界范围内要去满足自己的角色发挥，美国必须要强大，必须要起到领导的作用，正因为如此，我们必须在国内加强经济发展。你知道有2300万人没有就业机会，我们经济是不强大的。在过去经济增长也放缓，还有一些孩子，他们辍学，或者他们毕业之后找不到就业的机会，这真的是不行的，我们必须让经济强大下去，我们军队也是如此，我们必须要进行长期的军队强化和加强。我们现在做出军事决定，我们要去应对所面临的挑战，在2000年辩论的时候，我们还没有谈论恐怖主义，但是后来9.11就出现了，我们应该强化军队，我们不应该削减军费，我们也要加强与盟国的合作，现在美国和以色列之间的关系真的非常不幸，我们现在在波兰也有一些导弹项目，这也是不幸的。这会破坏我们之间已经存在的关系。我们有时候忘了去遵守我们的原则，我们现在必须要遵守原则，我们要去支持强大的经济，强大的军事发展。

主持人：好，总统说一下。

奥巴马：美国是一个不可或缺的国家。世界需要一个强大的美国，我觉得现在比我刚刚开始就职的时候要强大了，因为我们现在能够重新的关注重点的事情，我们也可以开始在阿富汗进行过渡，我们现在可以重新关注与盟国的关系。在过去十年当中我们都忽略了与盟国的关系。罗姆尼州长，我们盟国关系在亚洲、非洲、欧洲是最强大的，和以色列也是如此，在那里我们有史无前例的军队和情报关系，包括去应对伊朗的威胁。我们现在能够做的就是去建立很好的定位以便我们能够重造美国，这也是我们的一个计划，我们要确保我们能够把制造业的机会重新带回美国，以便我们能够创造就业机会，而不是去奖励那些把工作机会带到国外的公司。我们也要对工人进行重新培训，应对未来的就业的需求，我们现在也有很好的能源发展，我们的石油现在水平在20年当中，现在进口是最少的，我们的出口到2020年的时候会有很好的发展，这需要我们展示出来一种领导力，我们要确保能够降低赤字。罗姆尼州长不会这样做，我们比有负责任的方式降低不必要的支出。罗姆尼州长采取不同的方法，在整个大选当中采取不同的方法，在国内还有国外，他们都提出了一些不同的政策，比如说有一些培训的政策，有一些政策显示出来一些智慧。但是这些方法在21世纪无法使我们获得一个领导力的地位。

主持人：罗姆尼州长你的政策根据总统说的有一点不太对。

罗姆尼：我看到的东西不希望四年之后重现，如果总统所说的是不对的，我们现在失业率不会这么高，我们现在也会看到，首先我们要获得北美的能源的独立，我们要充分利用天然气、核能、可再生能源、石油、天然气等等，我们要提高贸易，每年贸易要去增长10%，我们实际上可以做的更好，尤其是在拉丁美洲，对我们来说在拉美机会非常多，我们可以充分利用这些机会，实际上拉丁美洲经济和中国一样多，拉美存在很多机会。

我们要有一个培训项目，针对我们学校都是运作良好，希望我们学校的校长还有家长都能够支持，我们还要控制预算，现在大中型的企业现在利用自己的收入在美国进行投资，我们要去支持他们。我们一定要去扭转支出的态势。

我们需要去支持小企业发展，小企业创造了很多的机会，2/3的就业机会都是来自小企业，还有新企业的创建。现在30年当中，已经下滑到最低水平，我们希望能够促进小企业的发展，来创造更多的就业机会。

奥巴马：首先刚才州长先生说到了他的五点计划，之前您在马省的州长，在当时当时马省小企业占到48%，你在马省当时一些政策并没有帮助中小型企业，当时你帮助是一些在大企业或者最富的人，但是我们现在最重要的就是为了能够在21世纪做出改变的政策，确实跟教育相关的，我们必须要推动美国的领导力，我们现在和46个州的州长一起推动教育，我们现在正在取得一定的进展，我们现在希望能够雇佣更多的数学和理科一些老师，因为在这方面美国做得比较缺乏。刚才州长说到了，这能不能帮助经济增长，您刚才说不会帮助经济增长。之前说过教室大小和教学质量没有关系，但是你和教师交谈你会发现这会起到很大的作用。现在教师需要我们得到支持才能够把教学质量搞上去。我们现在要想有最有技能的工人，我们必须要注重教育问题。我们现在如果说减少赤字的同时去减少我们对于教育的开支，这对于美国的未来在世界上的地位没有任何好处的。

罗姆尼：再回到外交问题上来，我想回应一下刚才总统先生所说的教育问题。我非常的自豪，因为我之前在马省的教育是非常好的，我们测试从八年级到12年级，特别数学方法，马省成绩都是全国名列前茅，而且全国几十个州排名第一，特别是数学，用四种方法哪一种方法衡量，我们在全国都是排第一的，现在我们已经得到了两榜的通过，希望在全国有最好的教师，这就是我的政策能够使马省成为最高的教育之州。

我们州学校现在排名第一，当时是第一，现在还是第一。就是因为我们当时有很好的政策。如果说我们的学生能够在全班上排名是前25%，他们可以拿到奖学金，这就是我当时实行的一些政策。

持人：之前辩论当中听到州长说给海军增加规模，希望增加军费开支，但是现在我们国家有经济问题，你这个钱从哪儿来？

罗姆尼：首先我想说，我们要减少自由开支5%，其中包括了一部分军费开支。如果说我们看一下网站，就可以看一下我们的预算怎么样能够做。首先我要去掉的就是奥巴马医改。问题就是奥巴马医改确实太贵了，我们必须要把这个去掉。

另外，还有一些项目，不是非常必要的项目，我们都会一个一个去掉。另外，现在美国对于穷人的医保，这个医保需要增加效率，很多人都说我们现在还需要对于穷人的医保，现在很多州，比如亚利桑那或者是罗得岛，他们以成本效益最高的方式管理一些医改项目，这就是未来8到10年之后我们应该做的改变，我下面讲一下军事问题。

奥巴马：首先回答一下他刚才讲的第一点，州长说我们要减税5万亿，我们要减少税的抵消。他说可以做到，另外他想增加军事开支2万亿，大家算一下，我们现在的军事开支其实是从我上任之后每年都会增加的，我们的军费开支是中国、俄国、法国、英国很多国家的军事开支之和，我们现在和我们的军队领袖确保我们的军队预算怎么能够平衡，不能做的就是花2万亿作为额外的军费开支，然后再进行5万亿的减税。你说你会用减少税务当中的一些漏洞和减少税务的抵消来完成5万亿的减税。但是问题是，这个数字根本说不通，而且这样一种政策会造成现在所遇到的这些困难。所以我们要想国家能力，我们必须要能够有空间安全以及网络安全，这些是战略相关的，这和政治无关，和国会议员观点无关。我们必须要确保美国人的安全，这是现在军费开支要做的事情。

罗姆尼：我们要减少赤字，这是国家安全问题。我们现在要确保经济在国内是非常强劲的，这样能够实现我们在海外的安全目标。我讲一下预算问题，盐湖城预算也是不平衡的，但是我也让它平衡了。我们现在到共和党也是在预算方面做了很多工作，我想在这方面是有能力，我也有机会能够把预算平衡了。

再讲一下军费预算，现在海军和1970年相比是规模最小的，我们现在如果说要进行减少，海军的舰队数量就更少了，现在舰队数量大概200不到，我们一直以来都说，我们可以打两个战争，但是这是美国总统最重要的一个责任，就是要保护美国人民的安全，那么我当然不是说我们要减少几万亿的军费开支，这么做肯定行不通的。我们要确保的是未来是安全的。

奥巴马：在这里我想回应一下。军费预算减少并不是我说的，这是国会说的，我们要减少我们军费的开支。刚才州长的确花了一些时间看了一下军事的问题，的确是你看的一下海军，但是当时我们的军队性质是不一样的，我们当时用的是战马等等一些武器，但是现在我们有潜艇、飞机等等，我们现在不是看数量，我们不是看我们到底有多少个军舰，我们是要看能力。我们的三军参谋和我一起要看一下我们现在美国的军队怎么样能够确保国家安全，并且我们的老兵在战后回到美国的时候，他们怎么样得到我们的支持。但是你说的这个方法根本就是行不通的，你这个预算行不通。我研究过你的网站，就是行不通的。

主持人：进入下一个问题，伊朗和以色列的红线问题，我想请各位用两分钟时间来回答这个问题，首先问一下奥巴马先生，你们会不会认为只要是攻击以色列就是攻击美国，因为以色列是我们的盟国之一，我们对盟国做出一些承诺，比如像日本，对日本开战就是对美国开战，对我们盟国在冷战期间就做出这样的承诺。

奥巴马：我想说一下，以色列是我们在当地的一个盟国，如果说以色列遭袭，我们肯定会站在他们那边。

主持人：你已经做出这样的承诺吗？

奥巴马：如果说以色列受袭，我们肯定站在以色列那边。我们现在和以色列有着非常好的军事和情报的合作，在这一周我们将会有最大的军事演习，就是和以色列历史上最大的军事演习，在伊朗问题上，只要我是美国总统，伊朗就不会研制出核武器，这是我在上台之后做出的承诺，我们会有在历史上对伊朗最严厉的制裁。现在可以看到伊朗货币已经贬值了80%，我们可以看到他们的经济情况是非常糟糕的，因为一个研制核武器和伊朗是会影响到全球的安全，也影响到我们国家的安全。伊朗也是资助了很多恐怖主义，另外还把很多武器卖给一些非国家参与者，所以我们现在所做的一些工作，除了制裁之外，是给了伊朗一个选择，他们可以用外交手段来解决这个问题，或者说他们就会面临的就是，我作为美国总统会说，我们不会放弃任何的一些解决问题的手段。之前州长在他的宣传当中曾经说过，我们应该做出更激进的一些方法。

罗姆尼：但是我说的就是，我的手法就是，我们不会在一般情况下动武。当我成为美国总统，我们一定会和以色列站在一边，我们会支持以色列，不仅仅是外交方面，同时军事和文化方面也会站在他们那边，关于伊朗威胁问题，非常确定的就是说，如果伊朗有核能力，对于美国是很大的威胁，对盟国也是很大的威胁，伊朗如果有核武器，肯定用在敌对的国家上，我们之前看到的就是我们的制裁并没有非常的有用，这些制裁现在有一部分方面的确有用，比如在经济方面。

第二点，就是我会加紧制裁，让制裁更加严格。我想可能在这方面欧盟也会支持我们，比如说你要是和伊朗进行石油交易，我们会不让你进我们的港口。

另外，我想确保的就是能够将内贾德绳之以法，另外我要确保他们的外交方式也是一样的，我们要告诉他们，他们这种对于核武器的追求是对于美国来说完全不能接受的。如果所有的这些渠道都没有办法生效，我们就会使用军事手段。

主持人：我们都知道现在报告都说，美国在原则上是非常反对伊朗的核计划的。

奥巴马：首先第一点，报告是不对的。我们的目标就是让伊朗认识到需要放弃自己的核计划，要遵守联合国的决议。因为他们有机会重新进入联合国整个全球社区，在世界范围内伊朗人也和我们希望有良好的生活，我们希望领导者能够做出正确决定。我们唯一让他们做的就是放弃核项目，希望他们能够赞同我们的一些步骤。当然，在竞选过程当中，听起来好像罗姆尼州长要和我们做的事情是一样的，也许你们的呼声更大会产生更大影响。您提到这些制裁，这些制裁让我们感觉非常的痛苦，我们在办公室享受的很多的想法，我们现在需要去恢复美国世界范围内的可信力，很多国家都应该参与进来，只是我们进行制裁，我们无法进行长期制裁，必须让长期国家都参与进来的，必须让每个国家都赞同，这样伊朗有压力。我们必须要维持这个压力，我们必须要达成一个交易，让伊朗遵守我们的规则。伊朗要说服国际社会，他们不会追求核项目。我们审查是非常精细的。这样就可以重新获得可信性。

当然我们也不会随便施压，除非我们有正确。现在随着时间变化，我们不会让伊朗和我们进行毫无疑义的辩论，我们有很多和以色列的情报合作，我们是有能力的，如果我们不能及时干预，让他们停止核项目，后果是非常严重的。我们需要国际社会共同合作，如果不行，我们就要采取任何措施防止他们有核计划。

罗姆尼：在伊朗方面有一个挑战，他们现在有着一定的脆弱性，他们现在看到美国的强大。最开始的时候，总统四年前竞选当中都讲了世界范围内的状况，一些领导者都进行了沟通。从美国总统这里他们走访了很多人，我们可以看到中东一些国家，很多国家都在批评美国，我觉得这是一种美国的薄弱。绿色革命，还有街道上一些反抗，我们注意到了这一点。当总统说，我们要在和以色列之间创造一种比较好的盟国形式的时候，我们现在可以继续努力，不断进行沟通。现在在伊朗有很多人有努力，要去创造一些核的威胁，威胁到美国。对于总统来说，我觉得最开始的时候，就应该去显示出美国的力量，去显示出我们是接受哪些，不接受哪些，必须让伊朗知道，他们不能发展核计划，必须要让他们确保他们理解我们的信息，要让他们知道，如果他们不遵守我们的一些规则，就会受到制裁，而且现在制裁要变得越来越严峻。如果我们这样做，我们就不需要采取军事行动了。

奥巴马：让我评论一下，我觉得罗姆尼州长所讲的都是不对的，他刚才提到了，我道歉这样的概念，每一个事实，每一个报告，罗姆尼州长刚才所讲的都不是真的。去强化制裁方面，刚才我提到的，我们拥有最严格的但是也是最糟糕的制裁，我们要确保这些制裁是有效的，但是您仍然是在中国的一个国有的石油公司去进行投资，那家公司在伊朗的石油部门要开展的业务，我们应该去看一下，在进行制裁的时候，哪些行为是最有效的，我们也应该看一下我们在伊朗革命方面一些态度，在那时候有一些活动是违背了国际的法律的。这是我们普通的公民所不支持的，那么在伊朗我们确实显示出了我们的强大，显示出我们现在能够动员整个世界，当我就职的时候，当时世界是分开的，当时伊朗非常脆弱，经济、战略、军事上都非常脆弱。多年以来都是这样，我们必须要对他进行施压，确保伊朗不会有核计划，这是符合美国国家利益，只要我是总统，我有会这样做。

罗姆尼：我们现在离一个拥有核的伊朗已经更近了四年。我觉得伊朗可能会越来越接近核武器。第二点，你确实是进行了抱歉。您去了中东，去了沙特阿拉伯、土耳其、伊拉克、埃及，但是你没有去以色列，而以色列是我们这个区域最密切的朋友，他们认识到了这一点他们认识到你没有去走访以色列。在一个电视节目当中，你指出有时候美国采取一些不同的策略，有时候你指出，中国和其它一些国家是存在一些非常强大的联系。

奥巴马：我给你介绍一些当时走访之旅，当时我进行竞选的时候，我首先是走访了我们的军队，后来去了以色列也是作为候选人去了以色列，我没有参加筹资一些活动，我参观一个博物馆，来提醒我邪恶的本质，为什么我们和以色列的关系是不可分解的，在那时候有哈马斯的导弹，我在那里看到一些家庭，有一些家庭展示出了，导弹甚至落到他们孩子的床边，我想这可能是发生在我们国家，我们必须要采取计划，阻止出现这样一些现象，我在整个区域进行了走访，那时候看到这些现象，我也在以色列进行了走访。现在最重要的问题就是，谁是可信的，对于所有参与进去的相关方，谁是可信的。你可以看看我们的记录，不管是伊朗的制裁，还是支持民主，还是反对恐怖主义，去支持少数民族的权利和妇女权利，人们都说法国总统在历史上是站在正确的立场和角度，这是一种可信性。因为这种可信性在某些方面展示出领导力。

罗姆尼：如果以色列总统说我们导弹就在路上，我们要去炸伊朗。我和以色列总统的关系，他不会打这样的电话，不会告诉我们说，现在炸弹就在路上，我们要去炸伊朗，如果他有这样的决定，我们一定事先进行沟通，不会简单那样做。我们看看总统所讲的，所发生的情况，总统指出，现在情况发展非常好，但是我看了世界范围内发展的状况，现在伊朗离炸弹更近了两年，不管在崛起还是怎么样，很明显，他们都是非常强有力的，在叙利亚看到三万公民死了，同时还有和中国贸易逆差，每一年贸易逆差越来越大，我看的一下世界，我觉得情况真的不一样，看到朝鲜，最近还有一些核武器计划，还有俄罗斯最新发展，还有很多的核扩散计划没有遵守和核不扩算的计划。世界范围内我们影响在下降，可能是由于总统在经济方面做的也不是很好，在军事承诺面做得也有问题。

还有以色列的这些动荡，总统获得了38个民主人士一些信件，指出我们要去修复这些紧张的局势，必须要解决紧张局势。

奥巴马：州长，你知道这里问题是，在以色列问题上，不管是中东还是阿富汗，还是伊拉克，还是伊朗，你都参与进去了，我感觉非常高兴，你来支持我们的政治，和伊朗进行双边会谈，让伊朗放弃核武器，但是几年前你说绝对不会这样做，当时你推出关于阿富汗的时间表，现在你说这得视情况而定，你说会停止以色列战争，但是最近你又说，我们必须要再派遣20万个军人去那里。你也提到去抓卡扎非，在本拉登之后，把他抓住之后，你觉得任何总统都会这样做，但是在2008年，当时我说我们如果看到本.拉登，我一定要亲自击毙他，你觉得我们真的应该翻遍世界某一个角落，把他找出来吗？如果我们看到他，我们不会一下子击毙他。我们把本.拉登杀死之后，当时在道德上，我和一个妇女进行了沟通，她在9.11出现的时候只是4岁，她父亲告诉他，有一辆飞机过来了，我会永远爱你，她跟父亲沟通的情况，她永远忘不掉。我们必须要让犯错误的人进行惩罚。我们不能忘记女士的父亲，这需要领导力。我们做出决定，不能总是受人们欢迎。当然也没有进行全民的一些检测。美国人他们知道，我会去看一下我们需要做一些什么，使美国人安全。我们要尽全力保护美国人的权益。

主持人：我们继续吧，我们看一下一个环节，美国在阿富汗、巴基斯坦的战争？州长说一下。

罗姆尼：我觉得当时你会出台一个项目，我很可能会这样做，我们会随后再讲。美国现在要去负责任，去确保阿富汗来进行自主，在2014年的时候，美国会从阿富汗撤回军队，让阿富汗人自己进行控制，我觉得这里至关重要的问题就是，如果说当2014年这样一个截止日期到达的时候，如果那个时候阿富汗无法去解决自己的安全性问题，我们的军队是否还会撤出阿富汗吗？2014年，如果我是总统，我就要确保2012年年末要把军队撤出，军队领导者都要确保实现这个目标，确保整个过渡是成功的，现在有一个培训项目，对阿富汗人进行培训，现在正在展开。现在已经有了一下阿富汗军队在那里去维持安保了。

我们能够在2014年完成一个安全过渡，我们必须要看一下巴基斯坦情况，我们看巴基斯坦就知道能否成功，很多人认为，其实都认为说，我们美国是洗洗手就走了，当然不是说总统先生，其实巴基斯坦对于地区，对于世界，对于我们来说都是非常重要的，他们现在仍然还有一些导弹头，可能俄国会跟他们研制更多的武器，另外当地还有塔利班的遗留势力，这都是很有问题的。如果说巴基斯坦成为一个问题国家，那么对于我们来说没有任何的好处，所以我们必须要鼓励巴基斯坦，让他们有更加稳定的政府，并且和美国有更加稳定的关系。

但是我们对于巴基斯坦的一些援助必须是有条件的，所以说我觉得我们不仅仅要让巴基斯坦走上正轨，同时让阿富汗做好准备，在2014年开始保卫自己国家的安全。

奥巴马：当我上任的时候，当时阿富汗和伊拉克问题没有解决，我们现在必须要关注阿富汗问题，我们当时进行了增兵。当时我们已经结束了伊拉克的战争，对阿富汗进行增兵。我们当时已经完成了很多的目标，在我们的战斗过程当中，我们有一段时间迷失了，不记得目标是什么，在阿富汗战争当中，有3000美国人丧失，但是在战争当中，我们打击了基地组织的一些核心人物，那么现在我们希望能够缓慢地撤军。当阿富汗已经有能力保卫自己国家安全的时候，美国就没有必要做出牺牲了，我们现在必须要确保的是我们和我们的盟军能够负责任地进行撤军，让阿富汗能够有能力保卫自己国家的安全。现在在十年战争之后，美国人们也已经意识到了我们要帮助他们进行国家的建立，我们已经使用了一些资源。我们必须要让一些资源，让老兵能够重回岗位。确保我们这些老兵能够回家之后，比如说他们有PTSD，就是创伤应急症之后，在美国能够有医保为他们治病。

之前我和一个老兵聊天，他当时在战场上应对各种各样的情况，回家之后他希望能够成为一个护士，其实我的夫人米歇尔也是参与很多相关项目，能够让我们的老兵工作，也是我上任之后工作重点之一，让老兵能够工作。这是阿富汗撤军之后的重要工作。

主持人：州长先生，你讲到巴基斯坦，以及在巴基斯坦我们要做什么，我们在巴基斯坦的领帅说，现在还有很多人丧生在恐怖主义的手中，巴基斯坦现在仍然还是资助了很多恐怖主义，而巴基斯坦也是恐怖主义分子的一个避难天堂，我们花了很多钱，我们现在是不是应该远离巴基斯坦呢？不和他们合作？

罗姆尼：我觉得不应该这样做，巴基斯坦业面临很多威胁，比如说他们的恐怖主义，比如说塔利班在巴基斯坦还是到处可见的。另外巴基斯坦的一些很多的集团也和叙利亚的阿萨德政府是有情报关系的，如果说巴基斯坦成为了一个失败国家，那么对于美国来说没有任何好处，因为当地有很多恐怖分子，他们是可以拿到核武器的。巴基斯坦其实对于我们来说是一个盟国，当然他们现在所做的好像并不是我们的盟国。当然我并不是想要怪现任的美国政府，没有把和巴基斯坦的关系搞好。我们必须要帮助巴基斯坦，当时我们也进入巴基斯坦干掉了本.拉登，这是我们应该做的事情。但是我们之后应该来帮助巴基斯坦人民，让他们建立一个更加稳定的社会，这对于我们的核不扩散是有好处的，对于阿富汗也有好处。因为现在塔利班的很多人，他们都是从巴基斯坦进入阿富汗的。所以说现在阿富汗的安全部门仍然有很多工作要做。所以对于我们来说很重要的一点就是必须要意识到我们不能不管巴基斯坦，我们必须要确保给他们提供进一步的支持。我们要让他们成为一个非常良好的社会。

主持人：那么我想问一下你在无人机的使用当中是怎么看的？

罗姆尼：我们应该用一些必要措施保护我们的国家，保护我们的盟国，我支持我们使用无人机进行袭击，我们应该使用这样技术，我们以后还会继续使用无人机的技术，来保护盟国和美国利益，之前我也说过，我们不仅仅是要一些领导人下台，或者说杀死这些恐怖主义分子，但是我们必须要确保能够打击在伊斯兰的激进分子，但是这一点我们没有做好，看一下过去四年，我们回答几个问题，中东是不是仍然非常动乱的？是。现在基地组织是不是已经清除干净了？没有。另外巴以和谈是不是结束了？没有，他们两年没有进行巴以和谈。我们有一些目标帮助他们实现安全的目标，这样才能实现和解和平。

奥巴马：我们战略不仅仅是干掉本.拉登，我们希望在当地解决激进问题。在也门、巴基斯坦都是一样的。我们要做的事情就是和当地政府一起使得当地人们生活越来越好，我们确保政府没有腐败，另外尊重妇女，而这方面我们在每一个国家都看到一些进展。还有民主的进程也在很多国家看到了。我们必须要确保在这些国家能够不断地有能力的建设，美国应该自豪的一点就是，在突尼斯进行反对游行的时候，我们是第一个和他们进行沟通的国家。那么在埃及我们也是站在民主这边，利比亚也是站在人民这边。影响就是美国任何一个国家怀疑美国的态度有变化，这是我们在这些国家的一些态度，那么这些国家对于美国，都有一些集团是对美国有威胁的。当然在于恐怖主义问题上必须是保持高度警惕的，基地组织现在的能力已经大幅度削弱了，这在我时任四年期间。

主持人：下面我们要进入下一个问题了，这是非常重要的一个问题，就是中国的崛起以及对于美国来说未来一些挑战，首先我想问一下两位候选人。请总统先生回答，你认为对于美国的国家安全来说，最大的威胁是什么？

奥巴马：我觉得我们的国家安全最大威胁仍然还是恐怖主义，刚才我也说到了，中国是国际社会潜在合作伙伴，如果他能够按照规矩办事，我在上台之后一直都说，我们必须要让中国和其它国家一样遵守规则，我们现在已经看到美国很多工作都被外包到其它国家，很多的企业在贸易上面都没有办法和中国企业公平竞争，这就是为什么现在有贸易小组解决国家贸易不公平的现象。我们看到中国如果说违反了《贸易法》，我们就要让他们负责。我们已经看到向WTO提交的提案，比如在俄亥俄的钢铁工人，这些工人都受益了，是因为我们向WTO起诉了中国。另外还有我们的轮胎企业也是受益了。这个帮助美国保住了很多就业。罗姆尼州长他说，这是保护主义，但是我想说的是保住工作的人们并不会这样想，他们现在看到了我们本届政府对于这些贸易问题是非常关注的，当然我们也要和中国进行竞争。在竞争的同时，我们也要关注国内的问题，如果说我们的教育体制不是最好的，如果我们没有办法进行研发，发展技术的话，如果没有办法在美国建立很好的企业，那么很有可能刚才罗姆尼州长所说的预算是没有办法为我们实现这些投资的。

罗姆尼：因为政府他没有办法使我们的企业成功的，我们现在最大问题就是核武器的伊朗。我们谈一下中国问题，中国和我们的利益其实差不多的，他们不希望有战争，他们不希望有贸易保护主义，他们不希望世界动乱，因为中国制造了很多的产品，中国每年大概都有两千万人从农村涌入城市，进行制造业的工作。那么我们不希望成为中国的反对国家，我们可以和他们一起合作。当然我们要让中国负起责任，但是他们会看和美国合作对我们有没有好处。中国是美国很大的债权国，持有美国很多的国债，有几万亿的国债。我们现在如果说，另外和中国还有军事方面的竞争，如果我们减少军事开支，对于美国来说就是太糟了。所以说很多人看美国都会看美国到底今后几年情况怎么样，美国是不是还会强大，美国的贸易和中国的贸易关系必须要为美国获利。我们看到在很多年以来，很多企业都倒闭了，那是因为中国并法国和美国一样遵守游戏规则。因为他压低了自己的汇率，使得美国损失了很多的就业。在这方面我们是做了很多的工作，也取得一些进展，但是做得还不够。我一直都说中国是一个汇率操纵国。他们不仅仅让我们损失了很多的就业，同时也是偷了我们的知识产权。他造了很多假货。我们理解，但是我们希望能够和中国关系好，但是中国必须要遵守游戏规则。

主持人：如果说中国是一个汇率操纵国，那么很多人就会说，你会造成和中国的贸易战争，你是不是认为在这方面会有这样的风险呢？

罗姆尼：我们和中国贸易差距有这么大，你看他们卖给我们的货和我们卖给他们的，所以中国不希望和我们进行贸易战争，我们看到和中国的贸易逆差也是越来越大了，我们和中国的朋友都说，你们的做法还挺激进的，我们也非常理解，但是你不能继续压低货币了，不能够造一些假货卖给全世界。

即使在美国，我们现在也有一些加工产业，我们现在也做一些誓言，但是这些誓言都被打破了。我们发现他们有一些产品有我们的序列号，他们现在已经生产出来很多仿造的产品，仿造产品包装和美国产品一样，序列号也是一样，这些产品在销售，就像美国生产出来的一样。

奥巴马：我希望和中国建立比较好的关系，中国可以成为我们的合作伙伴，但是这并不意味着中国要到盗取我们的知识产权。刚才所讲的就业机会运输到国外是正确的，我们要保护我们的美国的工人。但是我们现在是在从中国那里买汽车，而不是把汽车卖给中国，还有一些公司，他们不在美国去纳税，在美国一些公司他们可以必须纳税。我们现在需要在教育和基本的研究方面做出讨论。我们需要充分发展清洁能源技术，那么现在看一下我们在中国所做的一些事情，美国的出口现在已经翻了一番，从我就职以来，美国对华的出口上升了一倍，现在对于美国的出口来说，1993年美国货币是最有利的，我们现在继续向中国政府施压，把人民币升值。我们现在在亚太地区，我们结束了以色列的战争之后，我们进行了很好的发展，在将来会有着很好的发展，中国可以成为合作伙伴，我们信号是非常清楚的。美国是一个大国，我们必须要在中国拥有运营，我们和亚太地区的国家进行合作，确保我们船只能够通过商业继续进行，我们和中国以外的国家组建贸易关系，以便中国能够有一些压力，让中国知道必须要去遵守国际贸易的原则。

罗姆尼：我想想几点，他刚才攻击我了，我没有提到一些日程，进行贸易等等，实际上当然提到了我们有一些就业机会被弄到了国外，讲的都不对。我是在底特律出生的，那是一个汽车之城，我的计划就是要让汽车的行业重新站起来，布什总统当时写了第一个支票，当时他们说需要让这些公司破产，但是那个时候公司没有获得政府的担保，他们进行了破产。后来这些公司又有很多的债务。

奥巴马：实际上并不是你讲的，你应该看一下这些情况，我们没有那样说，我说我们要给他们提供担保，这样可以让汽车公司去通过破产的流程，我们要帮助汽车产业重新站起来。

罗姆尼：有人说我会让整个行业破产，实际上并不是这样的，有些人说我会让整个行业破产，并不是这样的。美国能够和世界任何一个国家竞争，我们会这样做。我们将来总统不应该觉得投资是毫无意义的，这并不是研发，而是对公司的投入，这并不是基本的研究，我知道我们要在研究上进行投资，投资是非常好的。要给大学提供资金的支持，但是对公司的投资就不一样了。我要确保我们要使美国更加具有竞争力，我们可以怎么做呢？我们需要使企业家能够愿意来到美国，让美国对企业家具有吸引力，如果没有吸引力，他们不会到我们这儿进行运营。

奥巴马：我觉得任何人都可以检查一下我们的记录，罗姆尼州长在这里讲的非常明确，你不会提供政府支持，给美国汽车工业提供支持，即使他们破产了，你也不会给他们提供支持，但是你说他们可以从市场上获得资本，确实如此，没有错，人们会去看的。还有一点是比较重要的，对我们来说我们具有竞争力，我们必须现在做出一些聪明的决策。要去减少教育的支出，预算，不是一个很明智的策略，无法让我们和中国进行竞争，如果有几万亿的税收减免，同时也去控制军事的支出，这也不会让我们有更大的竞争力。这些是美国人现在所面临的一些选择，你知道现在有很多就业机会都跑到国外了，很多公司他们没有在美国进行投资，这不会提高我们的竞争力。还有一点我是非常明确的，在十年之后我们看到这些工作机会走到了国外，还有很多人不来美国进行投资，我们现在已经做了很多的进展了，但是我们无法采纳过去的政策。过去的政策创造了这么多的困难，我们不能回到这些政策，我们必须向前走。

罗姆尼：向前走我是非常赞同的，过去四年当中的政策我们需要审议一下。要在美国中产阶级的收入是不断的下滑的，4300多美元，还有2300万美国人失业了，现在还有那么多的人，现在有7000万人，现在要去获得食品券，现在我们的债务也是非常多的。你说现在我们失业率是5.5%，我遇到了那些人，我也遇到了费城的一个女孩儿，她大学毕业之后，找不到工作，我遇到了很多人，这真的是一个灾难。而美国是如此繁荣，但是在过去四年是非常艰巨的。正因为如此，我们使美国成为世界上具有吸引力的国家。我们只是雇佣一些教师是无法实现这个目的的，当然我非常愿意雇佣一些教师，让他们去做的。但是我不希望政府不断地推我们去做。联邦政府没有雇佣老师，我非常喜欢老师，但是我希望让私人部门向前发展，但是我们知道我们非常喜欢教师，我们挚爱我们的教师。

主持人：先生们，非常感谢精彩的辩论。现在进行总结陈辞。

奥巴马：大家已经听到了三次辩论了，还有太多的电视的广告，现在你们要做出选择，在过去四年当中有了很多的进步，我们出台了很多的政策，我们有两个长期的战争，还有大萧条以来最大的金融危机，罗姆尼州长希望我们看一下这些政策，我们现在要降低赤字，但是我们要去确保我们现在的一些规则不是你们过去所采用的规则，我对于美国的一些愿景和你不一样，我希望充分利用我们的一些优势，希望我们能够把制造业的机会重新带回到美国，希望去吸引一些公司在美国进行投资，而不是走到国外，我希望我们能够获得世界上最好的教育的机会，去使我们的大学生能够应对未来的工作机会。我们也要去发展能源部门，要去发展天然气和未来的可再生能源。我们要去降低赤字，我们要削减不需要的一些支出，也要看一下在哪些方面我们可以做更多的事情，比如说我们可以在技术和严重方面进行投资，这是21世纪的基础。作为总的行政官，我要发布最大的军事命令，有很多的军人在国外做了很多努力，但是你知道现在我们需要重新审视国内的发展，我们需要修路，我们应该维持人民的自由。我们在过去经历了非常多的严峻的时期，现在我们必须要联合起来，鼓起勇气应对困难。如果我能够下届总统，我告诉大家，我一定会聆听你们的心声，为你们家人努力工作，我们每天都要确保美国能够成为世界上最伟大的国家。好，谢谢。

罗姆尼：博卡拉顿的林恩大学、奥巴马总统，我非常高兴来到这里，我对国家的未来是非常兴奋的，我希望看到和平越来越多，我们希望能够有真正的领导力，美国需要这样的领导力，要去促进和平，使世界变得更加安全，使国家的人民更加有信心，让他们知道自己的未来是安全的，我们要去确保经济不断发展，有两个道路，一个是总统的道路，四年以后我们会有20万亿的赤字，会在希腊有一些部队。根据总统的路径，在将来可支配收入会不断下降。总统现在让2000多万人失业，但是我要创造2000多万的创业机会，我希望人们不再依赖食品券，希望美国人能够找到工作机会。

在我的州，我们有87%是民主党人，我们知道需要采取哪些措施使国家能够恢复过去良好的经济增长当中，我们美国是地球的希望，我们感觉非常兴奋，我们这样一个国家是自由的，我们是最伟大的一个国家，我们要让世界看到我们自由的火把，现在我们希望能够把这个火把接下来继续传播自由，我希望能够在你们学校成为领导者，我会和他们进行合作，我会以一种坦诚方式进行合作。在你们支持下，如果我能够成为总统，我会和你们进行合作，能够继续保持美国世界希望的位置。

主持人：非常感谢，今天辩论到此结束，非常感谢各位的聆听，我总是要想一下我妈妈经常讲的一些词，辩论结束之后她通常说，“太棒了”，谢谢各位!